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Ugly Truth Behind Devastating Armenian Defeat In Karabakh Was Revealed

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Armenian Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan led Armenian forces to collapse in the Nagorno-Karabakh war and lost Shusha because he was refusing to accept Russian peacekeepers and allow displaced Azerbaijani citizens to return. This was revealed by Russian President Vladimir Putin during answers to media questions on November 17.

“On October 19-20, I had a series of telephone conversations with both President Aliyev and Prime Minister Pashinyan. And then the Azerbaijani armed forces regained control over an insignificant southern part of Karabakh. In general, I managed to convince President Aliyev that it is needed to stop hostilities, but a mandatory condition on his part was the return of refugees, including to the city of Shusha,” Putin said. The proposed peace agreement supposed to allow Armenian forces to maintain control over their side of the contact line, including Shusha, and to allow the return of civilians under the supervision of Russian peacekeepers. However the Pashinyan government said that it was “unacceptable” for them because this move would supposedly threaten Armenian interests. In the ensuing weeks after the refusal to accept the Russian peacekeepers deployment, Armenian forces retreated from a large number of areas in southern and central Karabakh, lost the symbolic town of Shusha and in the end accepted a much worse peace deal. After total defeat in the war with Azerbaijan, it was obliged to surrender the districts of Lachin, Kalbajar and Agdam. Shusha is in the hands of Azerbaijani troops. Thousands of Armenians were killed. These are the costs of the actions of the Soros-grown Pashinyan clique that was obsessed with pleasing its western puppeteers by distancing from Russia rather than defending Armenians.

As to the current status of Nagorno-Karabakh, it has not been settled and, according to Putin, the sides agreed to “maintain the status quo”. A “significant factor” that played a role in the Second Karabakh War and now influences the potential settlement process is that Armenia itself has neither recognized Karabakh as an independent state nor as a part of Armenia.

“To put it bluntly, after the former Georgian leaders’ undoubtedly criminal moves, I mean the attacks against our peacekeepers in South Ossetia, Russia recognized the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. We recognized the expression of the will of the people living in Crimea to reunite with Russia as just, and we met the people halfway, we did so openly. Some people may like it, others may not like it, but we did it in the interests of the people who live there and in the interests of Russia, and we are not ashamed to speak about it openly.

This did not happen with Karabakh, and this, of course, has significantly influenced the developments there,“ Putin noted.

Meanwhile, the Armenian prime minister and his circle continue crying foul blaming previous governments, the Armed Forces and even the Armenian nation in general for the loss of the war. Armenia has become another sad example of how color revolutions and the seizure of power by pro-globalist grant-suckers eventually lead to the destruction of statehood and major territorial or economic losses for the countries where this happens.

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shylockracy

Doesn’t Putin have any clout over Armenia’s military and intelligence apparatus to stage a coup in Erevan? Doing everything the “legal” way is allowing the Ziocorporate terrorists to run their schemes freely, like the 2018 “revolution” in Armenia. Another “ugly truth” is that Putin wouldn’t risk sanctions and strained relations with his terrorist Ziocorporate business partners in the West for a small “ally” like Armenia either.

El Mashi

Doesn’t do coups like the US. Putin obeys international law.

shylockracy

“International law” designed by the Ziocorporate terrorists at the Rockefeller headquaters of the UN in Jew York City. If that adherence were so strict as you think it should be, Crimea wouldn’t have reunited with Russia and would be a warzone like Donbass.

M vD

He’s right though. Putin is too nice of a guy. I would have the Nato offices in Ukraine blown up by Russian militia. I would have the US navy port construction in Odessa blown up too.

Jens Holm

Yerrhh we know You would do this and that. But we are not the ones, which collapsed Ourself in politics, economy and military matters.

You certainly has been blown up too much Youself by hot air form You own behind. Very good internet cannot brong smell yet.

I will remind You that many others were in Caucasus long before the Tzars and a descrition says, You were the last and also a very vioont guest killing and moving around people there as not people but objekts.

….And of course the big one should take over the small ones….So why dont You let China, India or USA take iver. West Germans, which You didnt plunder, for many years could ahve teched You away from Ypur poor lowlife tradtions added with plundering Oligarcs

NatureTruth

Takeover and then spends next 100yrs fighting rebels and feeding millions of Armenians?

Jens Holm

Again babling nonse. ow Rocky as Sylvester stallone is there too :)

Kenny Jones ™

International law is like toilet paper, you wipe your ass with it

Kenny Jones ™

Man I wish he would pull one, like the US does all the time around the world, would be completely justified

Azat

Pashinyan’s Armenia Is Betrayed by the West While Forgetting the East https://youtu.be/o_6-zf1teWQ

El Mashi

The Armenian traitors are worst than the known enemy. It was Armenia that put a knife in Putin’s back as it made nice with Nato.

Kenny Jones ™

Are you Arab? Good to see you support the right side

Jens Holm

You probatly learned them to read, write and not to understand too.
But we all has seen the knife. Now Putin is magnetic too:)

occupybacon

So basically returning Azeri refugees to Karabach including Shusha would have made it de facto Azeri teritory. That’s even.

Rhodium 10

Again you are naive or what?..do you think that AZ people are going to change the rich Baku for a poor cold mountain lands living close to Armenians?…that was the best solution when AZ had to face the incoming strong battles and didnt know that Pashinyan as a western puppet had sold NK because his godparents in NATO wanted a total defeat of NK which would expel Russian troops from Armenia and the end of CTSO..and then we will see US contingent deployed in Armenia and NATO army ( Turkey) deployed in NK!..therefore the losers would be Russia and Iran…while Armenian people like naive Ukrainians would be convinced that this is the best way to Join the country to EU and NATO…

Fog of War

Do you think the average Armenian still doesn’t want to join the ” west ” and benefit from all its ” gifts ” ? You would be fooling yourself greatly. I’m certain most young Armenian women want to be just like their national heroes ” the Khardashians “, and once the ” West ” has control of the women’s minds the rest is easy. Look at Serbia for example.

Jens Holm

Comparing with Serbs makes no sence.

There are no benefits from the west. We help, so they in normal strucures semilars to Ours in own context can produce in new systems or regain the good parts of the collpased parts.

So the gidt is, they produce better ro themself but also for export, so they can buy, what they cantt produce themself.

Those not gifts but as a minimum schratching each others behinds.

Vomen er no heroes of they are in eqal jobs as men and are paid the same amount of monery. Thet ¨deserve it as well as lazy bum men and vomen deserve less.

Rhodium 10

All that Ex Soviet countries population want to join west…nothing new!..they are poors ( except rich petrol countries)…and dream being the Kardahians or spending holidays in Marbella…but meanwhile (Ukrainians among others) engineers are Picking apples, Tomatoes, Olives in Germany, Spain and Italy…

John Brown

Do you think the average Armenian still doesn’t want to join the ” west ” and benefit from all its ” gifts ” ?

Yes they have lots of gifts so far don’t they. Just like the Ukies, Georgians etc. They can all be robbed blind and end up as slaves.

By the way over 2 thirds of Americans are now very poor, There is rampant crime, over 30% have a criminal record, with over 70 million on food stamps and more Goyims in prison then Stalin Mao or Hitler ever had. They never had it so good

Fog of War

Your comment doesn’t reflect reality. The Ukraine is losing its population to the West at a suicidal level. As would Georgia, if it had easy access to the EU. Obviously those people are blinded by the west as is most of the rest of the world. Look at Syrians for instance, they run to the nations that are directly involved in the destruction of their own country. Obviously they are all under an evil spell.

Jens Holm

Hahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhahahhahahahaahahhaaacomment image

John Brown

It is exactly as I told you many times. I was completely and totally right and you were completely and totally wrong.

Armenia had no chance as I said because the Armenian nation followed the Soros coup leaders and their lord Satan to total defeat and destruction. This is what happens when you make a pact with the devil.They even supplied the Ak47s the head choppers used to kill Armenians.

The wage of Satan is death. They are laughing their asses off at the stupid Armenian Goyim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXKFlts3bAY&list=RDcXKFlts3bAY&start_radio=1

Jens Holm

Thats no Zoros coup but a Sovjet Empire collapse.

John Brown

its a racist supremacist global Jewish satanic slave empire dictatorship collapse.Soon the Zio dollar will go bye bye replaced by the Yuan.

Jens Holm

hahahahahahhahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahcomment image

occupybacon

‘Naive’ Ukrainians were attacked By Russia just for daring to free trade with EU. Ex soviet countries are worried of growing apetite of expansion of Russia, that’s why they try to find partners in the West. Also Russian working class keep being por comparing to Westerners so why side with poor imperialist when you can progress and live them Ruskies behind?

Rhodium 10

Ex Soviet countries (except rich petrol)..are poors ans ruling by Oligarchy that cannot feed their population..therefore they ask to join EU in exchange of NATO bases close to Russia….meanwhile people turn pro western because the only way to earn bread is to be a cheap labour in EU..

occupybacon

They are doing a lot better than the ones that are still friends with Russia, for ex Estonia vs Moldova.

Rhodium 10

Moldova is like Romania…half of the Romania population live and work in Italy, Spain, GB, France..among others…while Estonia receive money because is an Important NATO enclave.

occupybacon

Also Turkey, Ukraine and others have millions working in EU, they send billions at home anually, why are not going to work in Russia?

Jens Holm

We invest in Estonia and they partly replace the Bolsjov museum with something else, so it more like som Marshall help, which helped us a lot after WW2.

Stalin denied Eastern Europe that regaining after the destructions because the Communist regime most likely would looses control.

All EU inhabitants can work anywhere they want inside EU and Estonia has been member since 2003. It s very normal inside EU to try to support Yourself and most of those guests of ours – in Denmark only a few 1000 – are in farming and farming industries. Most are fine people. We also has some few not fine people from there.

Its Russia, which are unfriends to Estonia and has to be protected by Nato. We im Nato will mver more accept any Russian expansion as it was. Russians by their systems are not able to give even its own citicens, what they need, and it should be easier for Russia not to have those neocolonies as a burden, which they has plundred and destroyed those countries with Hitler.

Estonia also is no enclave. Its connecte to Latvia, Lituania and Poland as well as I will say Sweden is high affiliated. comment image

Everybody in Nato is important.

John Brown
occupybacon

Nice chick

John Brown

Estonia friends with Russia?? Then why are they in ZATO???

occupybacon

To help Moscow integrate in NATO.

John Brown

‘Naive’ Ukrainians were attacked by the Zio empire just for daring to continue free trade with Russia.

occupybacon

Trading like what, buckwheat and muziks?

cechas vodobenikov

while Azeris acted reasonably the Armenians suicided—soros convinced them to apply to be a US colony

Jens Holm

comment image

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Who in their right minds will ever believe anything that comes out of that criminal Putin’s mouth, he’s more or less admitted himself and all his families are nothing but criminals, he’s latest laws just proved that, IMMUNITY for Putin and all his family from criminal prosecution.
WTF does he need to make a law like that for unless he’s going to need it in the future. He’s made laws to stop people criticising himself, he introduced extensions for the Presidency, and now immunity from criminal prosecution for himself all his family, who does that.
Alarm bells ringing people, good people don’t make new laws like that, just bad people do, that’s the ugly truth I’m interested in now, so I believe absolutely nothing Putin says anymore, NOTHING.
I first began supporting Putin back in 2005 because he was the only world leader committed to stopping the LGBTQI movement, back then I had no idea he would turn out to be no different to the people he claimed were willfully destroying western society, he’s actually one of them, a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

Rhodium 10

Dont pay much attention to western propagande…there are many wolves inside Russia with Sheep´s clothing…like the pro western wealthy class of Moscow and St Petersburg….the Etnic Turquic Oligarchy, the radical Muslims, the Jews Oligarchy…among others along the Russia federation….Putin just try to satisfy all of them because Russia need to make the economy grow to avoid colour revolution..he knows that Russia has a few strong allies ( China and Iran) but many weak allies that can change sides!..for other side Putin dont allow Israel or Turkey to attack SAA..it is the incompetence of SAA( like all Arab armies) which enable these attacks!…one example happened in Idlib…Turkish army sent drones to fly over Idlib to launch airstrikes and SAA took some days to deploy air defense there while was preparing MIG 29 fighter jets to be deployed in Homs to repel the drones airstrikes!..in that days of “settings”..drones had destroyed many SAA equipment that Russia had to replace!…another case of incompetence with Israel..if SAF just send a pair of MIG 29 to lebanon coast…IAF jets cannot fly low and have to take altittude to face Syrian jets…and then Israeli jets become an easy targets for air defense S-200/300..but none of that happen and Israel without risk continue “testing his weapons” and attacking SAA!…and the everybody blame Putin and Russian made weapons for useless!

Willing Conscience (The Truths

The biggest wolf wearing sheep’s clothing has turned out to be Putin.
Putin signed the Memorandum of Understanding that let the Turks move into Syria in the first place, and he’s signed at least 2 more MOU’s with them since.
Putin also did a deal with Iran and Turkey that resulted in the resolution 2254 political process [2015], a process Assad refused to accept for four and a half years, and he only accepted an alternative offer made by the UN because as he said it gave the Turkish backed opposition less power in the new political process than the old one his allies had been trying to force him to accept.
He used to be my hero too but now he’s just a criminal avoiding legitimate retribution.
Who makes a law to protect themselves and their entire family from criminal prosecution, Putin does, OMG, and you’re ok with that, mmm, you obviously don’t live in a western democracy, that’s the sort of law all freedom lovers recognise to be the total opposite of true freedom.
My old hero Gorbachev must be having nightmares now, and to think I placed Putin higher on my pedestal than I did Gorbachev, oh well we all make mistakes and learn from them, or at least most of us do, into the rubbish bin with the Putin icons forever.

RichardD

Gorbachev who crashed the economy subjecting 10s of millions of Russians to abject poverty, destroyed the Soviet Union, and almost destroyed Russia. And Putin who presided over the greatest economic miracle in Russian history and turned Russia into a great world power again. You’re a complete head case.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

LOL, I think you’re confusing Gorbachev with Yeltsin the drunk, and if your not then you’re just ill informed.

RichardD

“The dissolution of the Soviet Union (1988–1991)[b] was the process of internal disintegration within the USSR, which began with growing unrest in its various constituent republics developing into an incessant political and legislative conflict between the republics and the central government, and ended when the leaders of three primal republics (the Russian SFSR, the Ukrainian SSR and the Byelorussian SSR) declared it no longer existed, later accompanied by 11 more republics, resulting in President Mikhail Gorbachev having to resign and what was left of the Soviet parliament formally acknowledging what had already taken place.”

– Dissolution of the Soviet Union –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=The%20dissolution%20of%20the%20Soviet,ended%20when%20the%20leaders%20of
comment image

Willing Conscience (The Truths

As always we have different takes on this piece of Russian of history too, you say Yeltsin helped save Russia and I say he nearly destroyed it.
Gorbachev didn’t want to dissolve the Soviet Union, he was trying to save it, he tried to end the cold war and was very successful, he introduced economic reforms that proved to be ineffectual and were opposed by the communist party, and sadly his political reforms unintentionally allowed the traitors like Yeltsin to break the Republic up and dissolve it altogether.
The only thing I agree with you on is Putin came in and saved the day at the 12th hour, sadly he no longer saves Russia now, instead he makes new laws to protect himself and all his family from any future criminal prosecutions, mmm.
This is my copy and paste of what people like me say really happened.

“The three leaders, Boris Yeltsin of Russia, Leonid Kravchuk of Ukraine and Stanislav Shushkevich of Belarus, met secretly for two days in a hunting lodge 50 miles north of Brest, Belarus. At the conclusion of the meeting, they released a statement proclaiming the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States.
“As founding states of the U.S.S.R. … we declare that the U.S.S.R. is ceasing its existence as a subject of international law and a geopolitical reality,” the statement read.
The announcement effectively ended the authority of Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev. “The Brest statement does not reckon with Mr. Gorbachev; it simply ignores him,” wrote The New York Times.
Gorbachev’s power had been weakening in the preceding years, and he was nearly removed from power in August 1991, when Communist hardliners arrested him and kept him in his country home for several days. Though the coup was put down and Gorbachev was restored to his office, his authority was effectively destroyed.
Yeltsin, who had climbed atop a tank outside the Russian parliamentary building and called for resistance against the coup, emerged a hero. He had won the support of the Russian people and the Russian government began to take control of Soviet government ministries.
Gorbachev was powerless to stop the demise of the Soviet Union. The Russian legislature ratified the agreement on Dec. 12 and eight other Soviet republics joined the CIS nine days later. Gorbachev resigned on Christmas Day and the Soviet Union was officially dissolved the following day.”

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/On-This-Day–3-Soviet-Republics-Form-a-Commonwealth.html

RichardD

You admit that Gorbachev facilitated the dissolution of the USSR. Which lead to the economic collapse. You’ve proven my points for me.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

No I don’t agree with you at all, I totally disagree.
Gorbachev tried to save the already financially challenged Republics economy with his new reforms but they didn’t work, Yeltsin just sold out the country to the US and others, that’s a big difference Richard.
As to Gorbachev’s political reforms they did facilitate the end of the Soviet Socialist Republic but not purposely as you assert, it was Yeltsin and his 2 cronies who snatched the rug out from under Gorbachev’s feet by taking advantage of the new reforms, those reforms were supposed to give the independent republics more autonomy and more say in the running of the USSR, not help Boris Yeltsin your hero destroy it.
You know you’re about the only person I’ve ever heard claim that Yeltsin actually saved Russia, everyone else says Putin saved Russia from Yeltsin.

RichardD

I said that Yeltsin stabilized the collapse that Gorbachev caused. The numbers speak for themselves. Putin then stepped in and rebuilt the economy and nation.

Yeltsin wasn’t to blame for the dissolution of the USSR. Yeltsin wasn’t the president during Perestroika, Gorbachev was. Yeltsin didn’t create Perestroika, Gorbachev did. Yeltsin was a minor player prior to 1990. He wasn’t responsible for disassembling the USSR, Gorbachev was. By the time that Yeltsin became chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic in mid 1990 the USSR was already coming apart at the seams under Gorbachev’s presidency:

“On November 16, 1988, the Supreme Soviet of the Estonian SSR adopted a declaration of national sovereignty under which Estonian laws would take precedence over those of the Soviet Union. …

On December 7, 1989, the Communist Party of Lithuania under the leadership of Algirdas Brazauskas, split from the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and abandoned its claim to have a constitutional “leading role” in politics … Lithuania’s governing Communist Party was formally independent from Moscow’s control – a first for Soviet Republics and a political earthquake that prompted Gorbachev to arrange a visit to Lithuania the following month in a futile attempt to bring the local party back under control. …

1990

Moscow loses six republics

On February 7, 1990, the Central Committee of the CPSU accepted Gorbachev’s recommendation that the party give up its monopoly on political power.[78] In 1990, all fifteen constituent republics of the USSR held their first competitive elections, with reformers and ethnic nationalists winning many seats. The CPSU lost the elections in six republics:

In Lithuania, to Sąjūdis, on February 24 (run-off elections on March 4, 7, 8, and 10)
In Moldova, to the Popular Front of Moldova, on February 25
In Estonia, to the Estonian Popular Front, on March 18
In Latvia, to the Latvian Popular Front, on March 18 (run-off elections on March 25, April 1, and April 29)
In Armenia, to the Pan-Armenian National Movement, on May 20 (run-off elections on June 3 and July 15)
In Georgia, to Round Table-Free Georgia, on October 28 (run-off election on November 11)
The constituent republics began to declare their national sovereignty and began a “war of laws” with the Moscow central government”

Yeltsin didn’t do any of this Gorbachev did.

– Dissolution of the Soviet Union –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union

Willing Conscience (The Truths

You edited out all the BS you claimed in your last comment, why would I ever bother responding to you now, Mr Bigfoot and alien hunter.

RichardD

I was in the middle of editing the above comment when you replied to it. There wasn’t any bs. I brought most of the editing down to this comment after you replied to the first one while I was in the middle editing it.

This one just further illustrates the fallacy of your disinfo. But it looks like you’re looking for an excuse not to debate the issue because, as usual, you’re losing.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

There is no debate Richard, Asperger’s syndrome is a condition that inhibits debate, you just lie through your teeth while calling everyone else a liar, and then edit out all the BS you just wrote when someone calls you out on it, now my response makes no sense whatsoever, you’re BS assertions just disappeared and were replaced by another new comment, that’s not what the edit is for. FMD.

RichardD

That’s a dodge full of disinfo and false accusations. Which is par for the course for you. If you don’t want to reply to obvious truths that expose your stupidity. That’s fine. It will just save you further embarrassment and won’t waste anymore of my time.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

How many other comments do you edit the way you edited that one?

RichardD

Not very many in the middle of a debate. The way that the platform is set up it happens sometimes. I’ve seen you and others do the same thing.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I edit out spelling errors, wrong dates, wrong locations, ect, I don’t completely change the entire comment like you do, that’s cheating in it’s worst form.

RichardD

Changing the content is called editing, not cheating. It’s what the platform is designed for. If I had changed the content after I read your comment to cover my tracks, something that if memory serves me correctly I’ve caught you doing before, which I didn’t do. Then yes, when you do that it’s cheating.

You have the option of copying what I’ve written and including it in your reply to illustrate your point. Which is something that I do frequently.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I’ve never ever done what you you just did, so that’s another lie you’re telling me, are you going to try and tell me I once flew to the moon as well.
What I’d like is your original comment reposted in it’s entirety, that way we can all have a good laugh at what you actually said.
Just like all the worst liars you call everyone else a liar, but the real truth is your one of the worst liars of all, and a cheater.

RichardD

The difference between me and you is that I’ve proven your lies with credible evidence repeatedly. You’ve never proven your false accusations against me.

People edit comments here 24/7.

I never read your reply prior to posting the edit. Like I said, I saw your reply to another comment. And when I read it. Most of the edit that I was working on was applicable to it so I posted it there instead. Deal with reality loser.

RichardD

Goodbye USSR thanks to Gorbachev.

On February 7, 1990, the Central Committee of the CPSU accepted Gorbachev’s recommendation that the party give up its monopoly on political power.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

It’s the other way around, Gorbachev wanted to preserve the USSR and Yeltsin dismantled it from under his feet, then he ran the country into the ground and sold it out to the US, that’s what your hero Yeltsin did, all while he drank and danced his way into irrelevance.

RichardD

Gorbachev was well aware of the secessionist movements and deliberately fueled them. Everything that I’ve posted occurred prior to Yeltsin’s presidency in mid 1990. The USSR was already in full collapse at that time.

Provide proof that Yeltsin dismantled the USSR prior to becoming chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic in mid 1990. He couldn’t of. Gorbachev was head of state of the USSR, not Yeltsin. Up until mid 1990 Yeltsin was 1 of hundreds of congress deputies. He couldn’t have dismantled the USSR even if he wanted to.

What is it that you don’t understand about:

“the secessions that immediately followed, that were already in the works. That any fool could see would happen. Face the facts, Gorbachev destroyed the USSR, not Yeltsin.

On February 7, 1990, the Central Committee of the CPSU accepted Gorbachev’s recommendation that the party give up its monopoly on political power.“”

Willing Conscience (The Truths

You’re a fool that picks and edits out the most important parts of everything,

“The three leaders, Boris Yeltsin of Russia, Leonid Kravchuk of Ukraine and Stanislav Shushkevich of Belarus, met secretly for two days in a hunting lodge 50 miles north of Brest, Belarus. At the conclusion of the meeting, they released a statement proclaiming the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States.
“As founding states of the U.S.S.R. … we declare that the U.S.S.R. is ceasing its existence as a subject of international law and a geopolitical reality,” the statement read.
The announcement effectively ended the authority of Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev.”

Boris did what you say Gorbachev did, Gorbachev tried to improve the USSR and Yeltsin dismantled, he pulled the Russians out of the USSR along with BelaRus and Ukraine which then made it impossible for the rest of the existing Soviet states/republics to remain viable, that’s what destroyed the USSR, not Gorbachev’s political reforms, his reforms were used by Yeltsin to do what you say Gorbachev did, so as usual you have everything back to front.

RichardD

What is it that you don’t understand about:

“Provide proof that Yeltsin dismantled the USSR prior to becoming chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic in mid 1990. He couldn’t of. Gorbachev was head of state of the USSR, not Yeltsin.”

The quote that you provide:

“”The three leaders, Boris Yeltsin of Russia, Leonid Kravchuk of Ukraine and Stanislav Shushkevich of Belarus, met secretly for two days in a hunting lodge 50 miles north of Brest, Belarus. At the conclusion of the meeting, they released a statement proclaiming the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States. …”

Is from December 8, 1991. By that time the USSR had already been effectively dissolved for six months:

On August 24, 1991, Gorbachev dissolved the Central Committee of the CPSU, resigned as the party’s general secretary, and dissolved all party units in the government. On the same day, the Supreme Council of Ukraine passed a Declaration of Independence of Ukraine. Five days later, the Supreme Soviet indefinitely suspended all CPSU activity on Soviet territory, effectively ending Communist rule in the Soviet Union and dissolving the only remaining unifying force in the country

On September 17, 1991, General Assembly resolution numbers 46/4, 46/5, and 46/6 admitted Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania to the United Nations …

The final round of the Soviet Union’s collapse began on December 1, 1991. That day, a Ukrainian popular referendum resulted in 91 percent of Ukraine’s voters voting to affirm the independence declaration passed in August and formally secede from the Union. The secession of Ukraine, long second only to Russia in economic and political power, ended any realistic chance of Gorbachev keeping the Soviet Union together even on a limited scale.”

– Dissolution of the Soviet Union –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union#Moscow_loses_six_republics

You wrote:

“Boris did what you say Gorbachev did, Gorbachev tried to improve the USSR and Yeltsin dismantled, he pulled the Russians out of the USSR along with BelaRus and Ukraine”

Yeltsin didn’t preside over the succession of half of the Soviet republics, Gorbachev did. Yeltsin wasn’t responsible for running the USSR, Gorbachev was. Yeltsin wasn’t responsible for the dissolution of the USSR, Gorbachev was.

Russia never issued a declaration of independence and succeed from the USSR like the other republics that did:

“on 24 August 1991 the Ukrainian parliament adopted the Act of Independence.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Independence

“On 9 April 1991, shortly before the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Supreme Council of Georgia declared independence after a referendum held on 31 March 1991.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)#Georgia_in_the_Soviet_Union

“Armenia declared its independence from the Soviet Union on 23 August 1990.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Armenia#Independent_Armenia_(1991-today)

“After the failure of the 1991 Soviet coup d’état attempt, Moldova declared its independence on 27 August 1991.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova#Independence_and_aftermath

“On 4 May 1990, the Supreme Council adopted the Declaration on the Restoration of Independence of the Republic of Latvia”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia#Restoration_of_independence_in_1991

“In March 1991 a referendum was held where 77.7% of voters supported independence, and during the coup attempt in Moscow Estonia declared restoration of independence on 20 August”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia#Restoration_of_Independence

“On 11 March 1990, the Supreme Council announced the restoration of Lithuania’s independence.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania#1944%E2%80%931990

By the time that Yeltsin agreed to replace the USSR with the CIS in December 1991. The USSR was in an advanced state of collapse. Half of the members had succeeded. And the UN was admitting former republics as independent nations. All of the succession movements that resulted in declarations of independence were in the works before Yeltsin became the Russian leader.

The USSR effectively ceased to exist on August 24, 1991 and was beyond reassembly when Gorbachev dissolved the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and on the same day, the Supreme Council of Ukraine passed a Declaration of Independence of Ukraine. Gorbachev did this, not Yeltsin. The UN recognized that Gorbachev had put the final nail in the Soviet Union’s coffin and started admitting former Soviet republics a few weeks latter.

Blaming Yeltsin for the break up of the USSR simply isn’t consistent with the facts. Half of the Soviet republics had succeeded and the USSR was dead and gone forever by the time that Yeltsin brought the CIS into existence in December 1991 with Ukraine and Belorussia. Ukraine had already succeeded 6 months earlier.

Gorbachev was the USSR head of state when on 11 March 1990 Lithuania, 4 May 1990 Latvia, 23 August 1990 Armenia, 9 April 1991 Georgia, 20 August 1991 Estonia, 24 August 1991 Ukraine, and 27 August 1991 Moldova, declared independence and succeeded from the USSR.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

You have way too much spare time, go get a job or better still go back to school.
Here’s what you linked me,

“The secession of Ukraine, long second only to Russia in economic and political power, ended any realistic chance of Gorbachev keeping the Soviet Union together even on a limited scale.”

In other words no matter what Gorbachev did to try and retain a Union of Republics it was no longer a viable entity with the loss of Russia Ukraine and Belarus,. And Yeltsin was the president of Russia between the 10 July 1991 to 31 December 1999, so he was the one who pulled Russia out of the USSR and destroyed it by doing so, yet you try to blame the reforms Gorbachev introduced as the reason for the disintegration of the USSR.
If you’d said the Gorbachev reforms were the catalyst for the eventual disintegration of the USSR I might have agreed with you, but then I’d also point out the additional info you need to understand why the union broke up, which is Yeltsin put Russia’s interests above the interest of the USSR.
And don’t get me wrong, I never blame anyone for putting their own countries interests above the interests of their allies and friends, that’s normal human behaviour, but I actually believe it was in Russia’s best interests to remain in and retain the great USSR, not jump ship like Yeltsin did. Which then caused the total collapse of any mutual benefit in staying in the Union, hence Gorbachev’s reluctant dissolving of the Union, but he didn’t want to do it, he was forced to do it due to Yeltsin’s actions more than anyone else’s.
What would the USSR be without Russia, even if every other one of the other republics had remained in the Union it would’ve been a pretty piss poor Union without Russia.
The simple truth you don’t seem to understand is Yeltsin took Russia out of the USSR, which then left Gorbachev no choice other than to dissolve the Union, it had become totally ineffectual with the loss of Russia, and your hero did it, not Gorbachev.
Gorbachev just made the laws that allowed Yeltsin and others to do it, but he didn’t make those laws for that purpose, he made those laws to try and quell the unrest some of the republics were exhibiting, he wanted to give them more autonomy in their self governance and more say in the Unions internal governance, sadly he gave them an inch too much and Yeltsin and others took advantage of Gorbachev’s new political freedoms.
Why did Russia leave the USSR, the USSR didn’t abandon Russia, how about you answer that question instead of saying Yeltsin saved Russia and Gorbachev destroyed the Union, which is incorrect, the truth is Yeltsin destroyed the USSR and nearly destroyed Russia too.

RichardD

Yeltsin didn’t plunge the USSR into collapse, pull half of the republics out of the Soviet Union, and start admitting them to the UN as independent nations. That all happened under Gorbachev’s administration. The Soviet Union was effectively over when Yeltsin, who hadn’t pulled Russia out of what remained of the collapsing USSR, created the CIS consisting of 12 former republics, less the Baltic states, as a replacement to the USSR. The only thing left at that time was Russia and the Asian republics. What Yeltsin could get approved was the CIS as a successor to the USSR by mutual consent of 12 of the 15 Soviet republics:

“The CIS charter stated that all the members were sovereign and independent nations and thereby effectively abolished the Soviet Union. On 21 December 1991, the leaders of eight additional former Soviet Republics (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) signed the Alma-Ata Protocol which can either be interpreted as expanding the CIS to these states or the proper foundation or refoundation date of the CIS,[8] thus bringing the number of participating countries to 11.[9] Georgia joined two years later, in December 1993.[10] At this point, 12 of the 15 former Soviet Republics participated in the CIS.”

– Commonwealth of Independent States –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States#Membership

What you refuse to deal with is that there was no going back to the USSR that Gorbachev destroyed through mismanagement short of military occupation. Which Russia already had, and realized was a real politic non option. Putting Humpty Dumpty back together was impossible. By consensus, 95% of the USSR, including most of those that succeeded, reformatted what remained of the USSR into the CIS.

Yeltsin didn’t destroy the USSR, Gorbachev did. Yeltsin cleaned up the mess as best he could. Would Putin have done a better job? Sure. Could he have put the Soviet Union back together again if he became the Russian leader in mid 1990? Maybe. Could anyone besides Putin have put the USSR back together again during it’s advanced stage of collapse in mid 1990? I doubt it.

There’s a difference between saying that Yeltsin destroyed the USSR, as you are. When it’s abundantly clear that Gorbachev was overwhelmingly responsible for it’s destruction. And saying that Yeltsin didn’t do a good enough job trying to keep it together as the Russian leader. The historical facts are that Gorbachev was the leader of the USSR for it’s last 6 or 7 years.

Yeltsin was the leader of Russia for 1 year from June 1990 to June 1991 working under Gorbachev, who had largely destroyed the USSR by the time that Yeltsin became leader of the Russian republic. And President of Russia from June 1991 until the CIS replaced the USSR in December of that year.

And during the last 18 months of the USSR when Yeltsin was partially leading Russia. Yeltsin didn’t kick 7 of 15 republics out of the USSR. All of whom were already on their way out when Yeltsin got in office. They left of their own volition. Yeltsin didn’t dissolve Central Committee of the CPSU, resign as the party’s general secretary, and dissolve all party units in the government. Effectively ending Communist rule in the Soviet Union and dissolving the only remaining unifying force in the country. Gorbachev did.

These are simple historical facts that you’re trying to blame shift from Gorbachev to Yeltsin. When the historical record is clear that Gorbachev is responsible for what happened.

Half of the republics left under Gorbachev’s watch due to his mismanagement, and he dissolved the CPSU effectively ending Communist rule in the Soviet Union and dissolving the only remaining unifying force in the country. Yeltsin wasn’t responsible for any of that. That’s what killed the USSR, not the creation of the CIS by 12 of 15 of the past and present Soviet republics as a damage control replacement.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

You live in a fantasy world of your own creation, even half the links you provide confirm Yeltsin was the one who removed Russia from the USSR and caused the rest of the Union to collapse, Russia’s absence left the Union no purpose for existence, that was the downfall of the USSR, not Gorbachev’s reforms.

RichardD

What you falsely claim and can prove with credible evidence are two different things. Because you’re a disinfo peddler. 12 out of 15 republics consensually agreed to end the Soviet Union and replace it with the CIS.

Half of the Soviet republics had already succeeded from the USSR, thanks to Gorbachev’s destruction of it. Russia wasn’t one of them. When the USSR was replaced by the CIS.

These are the historical facts that only an ignorant fool or liar would argue with. Which are you, both?

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I know people with asperger’s syndrome are hard to bear.

RichardD

You’re an idiot.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

And you always have to have the last word, mmm, so will I be cruel or should I be kind, mmm.

RichardD

You wrote:

“Gorbachev wanted to preserve the USSR and Yeltsin dismantled it from under his feet”

No, Yeltsin didn’t dismantle the USSR from under Gorbachev’s feet. Gorbachev mismanaged, bankrupted and led half of the republics to succeed from the USSR. Not Yeltsin. Yeltsin didn’t even become the leader of Russia until the last 18 months of the USSR. The USSR, that Gorbachev was running was already in it’s death throws by that time.

In December of 1991 when the Soviet Union was bankrupt, Gorbachev had barely just survived a coup attempt, and half of the republics had already succeeded. Yeltsin and the Asian republics salvaged what was left of the USSR after all of the others had left and reorganized it with 12 out of 15 republics into the CIS. All 12 CIS members agreed to end the USSR replace it with the CIS.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I feel like being cruel.

RichardD

If you want to make a bigger fool out of yourself. Just keep typing.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Ok I will. :]

RichardD

You lost the debate with your disinfo, so you gave up, and now you’re wasting my my time and the site’s threadspace with your stupidity.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Did I, or did you. :]

RichardD

According to the evidence presented, you did. Which is why you stopped presenting it. Because you have none that proves your point.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I stopped presenting because I don’t have Asperger’s syndrome, you can’t stop because you do have Asperger’s syndrome.

RichardD

You’re really quite insane constantly making false allegations and peddling disinfo.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

You claim Yeltsin saved the Russian economy, but then also say I’m peddling disinfo when I say he didn’t, so you’re insane as well as moronic, LOL.

RichardD

As usual you’re misrepresenting what I wrote.

Try to get the facts straight. Even if you’re brain damaged from narcotics use.

I said that he stabilized the collapse brought about by Gorbachev’s destruction of the Soviet Union. That all of the republics experienced. And that Putin rebuilt it. No one disagrees that a better job could have been done economically during the Yeltsin administration. I wrote that Putin would have done a better job than Yeltsin.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I don’t know what you said anymore, you edited out your original comment and left a few chosen words.

RichardD

comment image comment image

Willing Conscience (The Truths

That’s not what you said in the original comment you deleted, but since you’re still insisting Gorbachev was behind the collapse and Yeltsin reversed it you’re still wrong anyway.

RichardD

The economies of the Soviet sphere had already entered free fall before Yeltsin was even the leader of Russia as a result of Gorbachev’s mismanagement. Which is what fueled half of the Soviet republics to succeed. The evidence of Gorbachev’s destruction of the Soviet Union is overwhelming. Your rejection of it shows that you’re irrational and unobjectivite.

Sure, Yeltsin’s management of the collapse could be criticized given the magnitude of the disaster that he inherited. But nobody would escape criticism under those circumstances. I’m sure that he would do things differently if he had it to do over again. But he did put Putin in office who turned things around and Yeltsin deserves credit for that.

If you want to look at others to blame besides Gorbachev, like NATO, for the collapse of the USSR, few, including myself, would disagree with that point. But that’s not your point. You’re trying to blame shift from Gorbachev to Yeltsin. The evidence doesn’t support that.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

So for the first 6 years of Yeltsin’s presidency the GDP went down faster and than it did during the previous 2 years, example 91/92/93/94, wow, and then in 97 it did stabilize at rock bottom, but in 98 it dropped again, and then in 99 the last year of his presidency it went up just slightly.
Your own graph disproves what you’re claiming, and as I said the only part of your comment that was accurate was the part about Putin reversing the the crisis.
Or don’t you believe what your own chart is telling you.

RichardD

You haven’t disproven anything that I’ve written. The entire soviet/eastblock region collapsed economically as a result of Gorbachev’s destruction of the USSR. The chart shows that the Yeltsin government stopped the collapse and Putin rebuilt the economy.

But your point was that Gorbachev didn’t destroy the Soviet Union. When the evidence is indisputable that he did.
comment image

Willing Conscience (The Truths

The simple truth is the USSR was already suffering from long term economic depression and Gorbachev tried to revive the Soviet economy with reforms, but sadly they failed, he then tried to introduce political reforms to try and give the republics more voice in the political system, and sadly people like Yeltsin took advantage of the new freedoms. Yeltsin dissolved the communist party in Russia, he withdrew his support for the Union which encouraged others to do the same, the writing was on the wall and everyone left the sinking ship, but if Russia would’ve remained in the Union all the smaller republics would’ve had no reason to leave.
When the best players on the team threaten to leave the team, which would then leave only the second rate players remaining in the team, is it any wonder all the second rate players start looking for new teams to join.
Gorbachev’s intentions were never to dismantle the USSR, he was trying to save it from collapse, but Yeltsin wanted to free Russia from it’s economic obligations to the Union, so did Belarus and Ukraine, and without their support the Union was non viable.
The communist party tried to take over the USSR government in a coup, after the coup attempt Gorbachev and Yeltsin both banned/abolished the communist party, but Gorbachev never intended on dismantling the Union, he was forced to do it and acknowledge it couldn’t exist without Russia, the Ukraine, or Belarus.
How about we agree to disagree, I’ll continue to believe Gorbachev was nearly a hero, and Yeltsin was an absolute villain, and you can believe it was the other way around.

RichardD

I never addressed Gorbachev’s intentions, just the results of his actions. Which was the destruction of the USSR.

The replacement of the USSR by the CIS, that involved all of the republics except the Baltics, and Georgia, which Georgia eventually joined, was a collective unanimous decision to end the the Soviet Union after half of the republics had already succeeded from it. And the entire Soviet sphere had entered economic freefall before Yeltsin even became leader of Russia. It wasn’t just Russia, Ukraine and Belarus pulling the rug out from under it. As you misrepresent it to be.

The dissolution of the USSR and creation of the CIS occurred essentially simultaneously:

On December 8, the leaders of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus secretly met in Belavezhskaya Pushcha, in western Belarus, and signed the Belavezha Accords, which proclaimed the Soviet Union had ceased to exist and announced formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) as a looser association to take its place. …

no one in either Russia or the Kremlin objected. Any objections from the latter would have likely had no effect, since the Soviet government had effectively been rendered impotent long before December. …

on December 21, 1991, representatives of 11 of the 12 remaining republics – all except Georgia – signed the Alma-Ata Protocol”

– Dissolution of the Soviet Union –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union#Fall:_August_to_December

Gorbachev ended Communist Party rule of the Soviet Union in August 1991. Yeltsin dissolving the communist party in Russia in November as part of the 12 republics dissolving the Soviet Union and replacing it with the CIS in December was immaterial to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Gorbachev had already extinguished it’s control of the USSR in August of 1991 and by December of 1991 when it was formally dissolved the USSR as a political entity had already effectively stopped functioning as a central government.

By the time that the 12 CIS republics collectively replaced the USSR with the CIS in December of 1991. The Soviet Union was in an advanced state of political collapse, dysfunctionality and economic free fall. It was a corpse kept alive on life support waiting for the plug to be pulled. They all decided to engage in a political, economic and military reorganization as the past path forward to deal with the rapidly deteriorating situation. Blaming Yeltsin rather than Gorbachev for that isn’t supported by the evidence.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

How’s about addressing all those videos of Yeltsin so drunk he could barely speak a word sensibly, there’s plenty of them on the net.
So how well do you think he was running Russia’s economy when he was in that sort of state, or bother to stay in a Union that was bleeding his state coffers faster than than his popularity was disappearing, he had to make sure he had money left to buy his vodka and the USSR was eating into that.
That GDP graph you provided could also be used to chart Yeltsin’s increase in alcohol consumption and his decrease in sobriety.

RichardD

The chart is no different than 20 Russian satellite states. Were they all run by drunks? Sure Yeltsin had issues and could have done a better job. But he wasn’t the one who destroyed the Soviet Union. Gorbachev was. Was Gorbachev totally to blame? No. Was NATO subversion a major contributing factor? Yes. Does Yeltsin share some blame? If he does, it was minor compared to others. And wasn’t a determinative factor.

The Union was bleeding everyone’s coffers, not just Russia’s. That’s why half of them left before they all agreed to. And replace it with the CIS.

Could someone like Putin have held the Soviet Union together where Gorbachev failed? Given what he’s accomplished in his life it wouldn’t surprise me if he could of. Or at a minimum replaced it with something stronger than the CIS in it’s current format.

But that wasn’t your point. Which is why I disagree with your contention that Yeltsin was primarily responsible for destroying the USSR, not Gorbachev.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

The Union was only bleeding Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine’s coffers, and some of the recipient republics preferred NATO cash, Gorbachev tried to stop the bleed and turn the anti central government sentiment around, but sadly he failed
And not even Putin could’ve stopped what happened, he was subservient to Yeltsin at that point and probably had no real say in what happened, Yeltsin just wanted out so he could improve Russia’s economic position, he didn’t give a toss what happened to the Soviet Union, so in my books he was the main cause of the disintegration.
The economic reforms Gorbachev introduced allowed for a two tiered economic system similar to the Chinese system, state owned and privately owned, and that systems worked really well for the Chinese, so maybe the Communists jumped the gun when they opposed those reforms, if they hadn’t maybe the Soviets would’ve been in the same position China is now, who knows.

RichardD

If all of the appropriately 20 Soviet block economies were contracting, which is what happened. They were all having their gdp drained by Gorbachev’s mismanagement.

What was straining Russia was the cost of maintaining military dominance over satellites that wanted out rather than in. Which was a new cost that Russia couldn’t afford in it’s weakened state. Once Gorbachev destroyed their economies. The satellites no longer pulled together. And instead pulled apart. That was Gorbachev’s fault, not Yeltsin’s.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Most of the soviet block were already heavily dependent on the 3 main industry powerhouses, so the drain began a decade before Gorbachev was even in a position to stop it.
Gorbachev’s economic reforms were introduced to stop the economic drain and his political reforms were supposed to stop the pro NATO satellite republics from switching sides, and as you keep pointing out his reforms failed.
But he didn’t destroy the Union, Yeltsin did, Yeltsin wanted to stop the economic drain and prop up the Russian economy, that’s why he banned the communist party and removed Russia from the Union taking Belarus and Ukraine with him, but his economic reforms also failed and Putin arrived to save the day.
What do you and the lone Ranger have in common, Asperger’s syndrome, exactly the same opinions, the same computer and the same bed, so who do you think you’re fooling.
You’ve got 2 separate accounts and you edit comments with deletions and changes, so I’m going to start addressing you as The lone Ranger and the Lone Langer as RichardD, since you’re the same person, because unlike you I like to tell the truth.

RichardD

“he didn’t destroy the Union, Yeltsin did, Yeltsin wanted to stop the economic drain and prop up the Russian economy, that’s why he banned the communist party and removed Russia from the Union taking Belarus and Ukraine with him”

“On August 24, 1991, Gorbachev resigned as the general secretary the Central Committee of the CPSU[107] and dissolved all party units in the government. … Five days later, the Supreme Soviet indefinitely suspended all CPSU activity on Soviet territory, effectively ending Communist rule in the Soviet Union and dissolving the only remaining unifying force in the country (On 6 November, Yeltsin issued a decree banning all Communist Party activities on Russian … On December 8, the leaders of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus secretly met in Belavezhskaya Pushcha, in western Belarus, and signed the Belavezha Accords, which proclaimed the Soviet Union had ceased to exist and announced formation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS)”

– Dissolution of the Soviet Union –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Soviet_Union#Moscow's_crisis

The Soviet Union was dysfunctional and had stopped performing as a central government in August of 91 when “Gorbachev resigned as the general secretary the Central Committee of the CPSU[107] and dissolved all party units in the government”. Yeltsin banned the communist party in November of 91 four months after Gorbachev “dissolved all party units in the government effectively ending Communist rule in the Soviet Union and dissolving the only remaining unifying force in the country”.

You keep saying that Yeltsin destroyed the Soviet Union. The USSR had stopped functioning in August of 91 when Gorbachev ended communist party rule and it was formally dissolved and replaced with the CIS in December of 91 by 11 republics with the Belovezha Accords, the “Agreement Establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States”, and the Alma-Ata Protocol.

This isn’t Yeltsin destroying the Soviet Union. The 3 Baltic republics were gone by then and already admitted to the UN as independent members. 11 of the 12 remaining members ended the Soviet Union and replaced it with the CIS in December of 91 after it had stopped functioning as a central government:

“the Commonwealth of Independent States was founded in its place on 8 December 1991 by the Byelorussian SSR, the Russian SFSR, and the Ukrainian SSR, when the leaders of the three republics met at the Belovezhskaya Pushcha Natural Reserve, about 50 km (31 mi) north of Brest in Belarus, and signed the “Agreement Establishing the Commonwealth of Independent States”, known as the Creation Agreement (Russian: Соглашение, romanized: Soglasheniye). … On 21 December 1991, the leaders of eight additional former Soviet Republics (Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan) signed the Alma-Ata Protocol … Georgia joined two years later, in December 1993.[10] At this point, 12 of the 15 former Soviet Republics participated in the CIS.

– Commonwealth of Independent States –

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States#Belavezha_Accords_and_Alma-Ata_Protocol_(1991%E2%80%931993)

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I wonder if Asperger’s syndrome is the reason you can’t imagine that things are actually planned and put into motion long before the official dates for those occurrences are stated or given, what do you think was happening just before Gorbachev abolished the communist party and dissolved the Union, do you think Yeltsin or anyone else was trying to keep the Union together, the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia weren’t, they were actually giving Gorbachev just cause for dissolving the Union, it was about to lose it’s 3 biggest contributors and everyone knew it, especially Gorbachev.
And no bite for my Lone Ranger observation?

RichardD

I’ve posted credible evidence supporting my comments. Your conjecture without supporting evidence doesn’t disprove what I’ve provided.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

It’s what some people call a difference of opinion, based on the evidence you’ve come to the opinion that you have, and based on the very same evidence I’ve come to the opinion that I have, but only you call other people liars for having a different opinion, I just try to argue my point.
This is like a “what came first the chicken or the egg” argument, and the verdicts still open on that one.

RichardD

I’m simply stating what happened. Gorbachev dissolved the communist control of the USSR, and defacto with it the central government, not Yeltsin. By the time that the USSR was replaced with the CIS in December of 91 by 11 of the 15 republics. The central government had ceased functioning months earlier.

You admit that:

“Gorbachev abolished the communist party and dissolved the Union”

Not Yeltsin. Yet you blame Yeltsin. It can’t be both. You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth.

RichardD

Brain damage from narcotics use can be mitigated by lifestyle changes and supplements. You might want to look into it.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

That’s good to know, sadly there is no remedy for what you have.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

You edited out what you first said in your comment, WTF sort of game are you playing at, you just left this little bit, why did you do that, didn’t you want to look stupid. LOL, I’ve never seen anyone change their comment like that Richard, that’s a first, FMD.

RichardD

I was rewriting the original comment when you replied to it.

Jens Holm

The probems started long long time before those two came in.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

The cold war had become unaffordable and Gorbachev tried to come up with a solution, it nearly worked but his economic reforms were too little and too late as well as being unwanted by many, and sadly his political reforms backfired which started the dissolution of the magnificent Socialist Republic.

Jens Holm

If You say so. I see it already was too too late bacause You cant be a superpower as it intended with no production to support it.

…And the reasons for low prioductivity are well known.

Jens Holm

Gorbatjof did no crasherd an already destroyed aconomy based on crap and old nepotists from WW2.

The main mistake was that Gorbatjov,Jeltzon and others should have taken over at least 20 years before.

I remember the loans. My uncle was in a company making big pumps. In DDR they could produce those pumps for lest then iron and steel for the pumps were – and they sold well.

But they had no idea about money and therefore got no money in to repay the loans for.

cechas vodobenikov

because u can’t make cheese and have no education u try to compare USSR w backward Us colony, danmark…a shallow freedom hating money worshipper like murikans

Fog of War

” Putin who presided over the greatest economic miracle in Russian history ”
Hitler who presided over the greatest economic miracle in German history. How did the Fuhrer manage to pull off his ” miracle ” ?

RichardD

Putin didn’t destroy his accomplishments like Hitler. It’s the difference between success and failure.

Fog of War

You missed the point totally most likely because you’re ignorant of the true history behind Hitler’s economic ” miracle “.

RichardD

I provided a rational explanation of the historical facts. Your rejection of them demonstrates your hatred of truth and irrationality. Or as I said in my other reply. You’re a retard. Go debate with Holms.

Fog of War

Kiss my ass buffoon. You chose to comment on my post. Or did your mental illness made you forget that minor point. Go hunt some Bigfoot now I’m sure you’ll be successful.

RichardD

The facts are idiot that Hitler destroyed Germany, Putin turned Russia into a tremendous success. Your rejection of this simple fact that any rational person accepts shows that you’re an irrational retard.

Jihadi Colin

Well then, Putin should have just gone ahead and declared that at the time. Why wait till now?

Jens Holm

t was decied fx by the Minsk agreement to negosiate them to remain calm.

RichardD

This video can be watched by clicking on the link below the screenshot.comment image https://www.silverdoctors.com/headlines/world-news/safeguards-in-place-servers-raided-patriots-have-it-all/

RichardD

This is a video by people who’ve been on the inside of the government at a high level. Who have been talking with the people on the inside of the current vote fraud debacle.

RichardD

This video can be watched by clicking on the link below the screenshot.comment image https://banned.video/watch?id=5fb5f1f68cb061413d959273

RichardD

This video can be watched by clicking on the link below the screenshot.
comment image

https://banned.video/watch?id=5fb5ea388cb061413d955db3

Ulli

100% true!

RichardD

I agree with the video. And have been saying much the same things here for weeks.

My view, as bizarre as it sounds, is that this is part of the JWO’s omnicide plan to kill every man woman and child on the planet. As outlined in the Alex Jones and similar material. And to replace our extinct species that they kill off with a genetically engineered caste system slave species that the Jews, Zionists and their collaborators rule over as immortal transhuman “gods”.

I’ll be the first to admit that this sounds like bat shit crazy insanity. And I agree that it is. But it looks like it’s what the scamdemic, lockdowns, martial law, eviscerations of human and civil rights, and global economic suicide and subversion are facilitating.

RichardD

Coincidence? I really don’t think so.

http://esau.today/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/jews-6-media.jpg

Jesus

After Trump talked to them personally offering rewards for being loyal and further his cause.

RichardD

Do you have a link, or is that conjecture on your part?

Jesus

I don’t need a link Trumps character is 100% flawed.

RichardD

What’s flawed about this? It seems like responsible behavior to me.

“Trump spoke with Palmer on the phone later that night, she told the Detroit Free Press. “He was checking to make sure I was safe,” she said. Palmer said that she and her family had “received multiple threats”.

The next day both Hartmann and Palmer filed affidavits in court seeking to reverse their certification of the Wayne county result, claiming that they had been promised internally that the vote would be audited, only to discover it would not be.” https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/19/trump-michigan-election-result-assault-challenge

Jesus

If they felt so strong about the Wayne county certification they should have kept the vote deadlocked. After a zoom meeting they decided to vote in favor of the certification. Trump and his diabolical plan to ask republican legislators to forgo the vote results and assign republican electors for him is further evidence of his disregard of laws for his benefit.

A flawed character produces flawed results.

RichardD

You’re ignoring massive evidence of fraud and coercion. Which indicates that you support it.

So who has the flawed character?

Jesus

Where is the evidence of massive fraud and coercion?
Trump is a chronic liar, breaker of laws that stand in his way when things benefit him, no empathy ……a wanna be dictator without guts and balls.

He did not even know on whose side Americans fought during WW1, calling the fallen dead suckers and losers.

RichardD

It’s on the Gateway Pundit an all over the alt media every day. There’ve been numerous articles here at SF on it.

Jesus

They are parroting Trumps lies. Most of the lawsuits brought by Trump were dismissed. Most reputable law firms do not want to represent him on heresay without evidence.
Giuliani is making an ass of himself having not been in a courtroom for almost 30 years.

RichardD

The evidence of fraud is massive. It wouldn’t have gotten to this stage if the corrupt local courts weren’t complicit in covering up, in some cases decades of, systemic fraud.

If you disagree with the evidence. Then disprove it. I haven’t seen anyone do that. The courts didn’t disprove the evidence, they ignored it and refused to authorize discovery. Which would uncover further evidence. That’s in the process now with appeals and new cases.

Giuliani and Trump’s other attorneys are providing large quantities judicial quality evidence of fraud. You just don’t like the fraud being exposed.

RichardD
RichardD

You’re making an ass out of yourself ignoring the fraud. The head of the Federal Election Commission says there’s fraud.

Jesus

You are making yourself an ass for believing a congenital liar, Mi and Pa have certified their votes, the congenital liar is allowing the the transition to take place. He lost, his ego will not allow him to act as a reasonable man.
Maybe you need to read the latest news instead of making excuses for a sore looser.

RichardD

I’m believing the evidence of election fraud, which is massive. If you disagree then disprove it. You won’t even try. Because you’re a never Trumper who doesn’t care if he was cheated. You’re ok with massive fraud, because it is being used to deny Trump a second term.

Jesus

I am neutral, I do not care about any candidate, both are no good, however Trump is a big fraud, Biden is a lesser fraud.
I am not interested in Trump’s conspiracy theories and all the spin trumpsters attribute to his lies, MAGA was a sham, loosing trade war with China, his idiotic handling of the pandemic, sowing discord between races…..etc.
I believe in populism, however, you need intelligent leaders that are realistic and not self promoting.
.

RichardD

That’s a dodge. The evidence of massive fraud, regardless of who you support, I didn’t vote for either, is overwhelming. And it’s exclusively against Biden.

This isn’t spin, it’s judicial quality evidence that is open source and easily viewed by anyone that wants to look at it. Almost all republicans and 1/3 of democrats agree that it was a fraudulent election. And the msm and big tech spin for Biden and against Trump is indisputable. Multiple scientific studies have documented it.

Even the msm is covering the fact that most the electorate thinks that the election was a fraud:

“A mere 3% of voters for President Donald Trump think President-elect Joe Biden won the 2020 election”

– Almost no Trump voters consider Biden the legitimate 2020 election winner –

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/23/2020-election-results-almost-no-trump-voters-consider-biden-the-winner.html

Jesus

The courts have dismissed all Trump’s lawsuits.
It is of no importance to me what trumpsters think.
They seem to be in a delusional made as their role model.

RichardD

– Trump Campaign Nevada Lawsuit Challenging Election Results Given Go Ahead for Depositions, Hearing Set for December 3 –

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/11/huge-trump-campaign-nevada-lawsuit-challenging-election-results-given-go-ahead-depositions-hearing-set-december-3/

RichardD

You’re delusional ignoring the massive evidence of widespread fraud.

Jesus

If Trump and Republicans were so concerned about fraud, they had time to look into it and identify it, however, because of this fraud, republicans in the House gained seats, and the Senate retained the republican majority…..until the GA senate run off early next year.
The courts in NV, AZ, GA, PA, MI and WI did not see evidence of fraud, Trump and his followers are delusional an d living in a universe of their own creation.

RichardD

Not only are you ignoring the massive evidence of fraud, you’re also ignoring the court rulings going against the dems. The dems have started losing in court as the PA court blocking certification shows. And other rulings favoring the Trump campaign are starting to come in:

https://twitter.com/mschlapp/status/1331435086936494081?s=20

https://twitter.com/LLinWood/status/1331753058024517634?s=20

And there are more cases in the pipeline from highly successful and experienced attorneys specializing in federal civil litigation and criminal prosecution:

Powell Michigan and Georgia Lawsuits.

https://defendingtherepublic.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Michigan-Complaint.pdf

https://defendingtherepublic.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/COMPLAINT-CJ-PEARSON-V.-KEMP-11.25.2020.pdf

In addition to the lawsuits. Half of the swing states in question have now opened oversight investigations into the fraud:

“The Donald J. Trump for President Campaign Legal Team today announced that the State Legislatures in Pennsylvania, Arizona and Michigan will hold public hearings on the election beginning tomorrow and next week in an effort to provide confidence that all of the legal votes have been counted and the illegal votes have not been counted in the November 3rd election.

The first hearing, held by the Pennsylvania State Senate, will be conducted tomorrow, Wednesday, November 25th, in Gettysburg, PA, where each participating Senator will give a five-minute opening statement followed by testimony from witnesses who have filed affidavits attesting to 2020 election fraud. Tomorrow’s hearing will also feature a presentation from former New York City Mayor and Personal Attorney to President Trump, Rudy Giuliani.

On Monday, November 30th, the Arizona legislature will hold their own hearing, followed by the Michigan legislature holding their own hearing on Tuesday, December 1st. Details for both hearings to follow. …

State Legislatures are uniquely qualified and positioned to hold hearings on election irregularities and fraud before electors are chosen. As established in Article 2, Section 1.2 of the United States Constitution, State Legislatures have the sole authority to select their representatives to the Electoral College, providing a critical safeguard against voter fraud and election manipulation.”

– PENNSYLVANIA, ARIZONA, MICHIGAN LEGISLATURES TO HOLD PUBLIC HEARINGS ON 2020 ELECTION –

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/pennsylvania-arizona-michigan-legislatures-to-hold-public-hearings-on-2020-election

The first oversight investigation was in Pennsylvania yesterday:

https://youtu.be/ohe2dQbNJwM

I watched the entire hearing. There are fraud affidavits from both poll watchers and poll workers. How the legislatures react to the fraud evidence is yet to be determined. But they wouldn’t be holding these hearings if they hadn’t already viewed substantial credible judicial quality evidence of election fraud

Once the court cases get in front of objective judges without a political bias. As is starting to occur. And they start deciding them based on the evidence and law rather than political bias. It will add to the body of decisions and case law officially verifying the volume of the election fraud.

Jesus

I am not ignoring the fraud, Trump is a fraud, who started spouting the lies about loosing the election because of fraud back in September. There might be localized fraud, however the Biden victory margins in Mi and Pa were significant, unlike Trump winning Mi in 2016 by 10,000 votes. No one blabbered about vote fraud …….Wayne county in Mi had they voted in strength in 2016, Trump would not have won Mi.
Giuliani and Sydney Powell the top lawyers representing Trump are frauds as well, Sydney Powell even claiming that Trump won by a landslide.

RichardD

It goes far beyond minor localized fraud. The evidence of widespread systemic fraud is overwhelming. Up to 30% of democrats and 89% of republicans believe that Biden stole the election. And that’s with massive msm and big tech censorship and blatant lies claiming that there is no fraud. The evidence is all over the internet.

RichardD

I completely agree with Dr. Hodkinson and have been saying the same thing for months:

“Top pathologist Dr. Roger Hodkinson told government officials in Alberta during a zoom conference call that the current coronavirus crisis is “the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public.”

Hodkinson’s comments were made during a discussion involving the Community and Public Services Committee and the clip was subsequently uploaded to YouTube.

Noting that he was also an expert in virology, Hodkinson pointed out that his role as CEO of a biotech company that manufactures COVID tests means, “I might know a little bit about all this.”

“There is utterly unfounded public hysteria driven by the media and politicians, it’s outrageous, this is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting public,” said Hodkinson.

The doctor said that nothing could be done to stop the spread of the virus besides protecting older more vulnerable people and that the whole situation represented “politics playing medicine, and that’s a very dangerous game.”

Hodkinson remarked that “social distancing is useless because COVID is spread by aerosols which travel 30 meters or so before landing,” as he called for society to be re-opened immediately to prevent the debilitating damage being caused by lockdowns.

Hodkinson also slammed mandatory mask mandates as completely pointless.

“Masks are utterly useless. There is no evidence base for their effectiveness whatsoever,” he said.

“Paper masks and fabric masks are simply virtue signalling. They’re not even worn effectively most of the time. It’s utterly ridiculous. Seeing these unfortunate, uneducated people – I’m not saying that in a pejorative sense – seeing these people walking around like lemmings obeying without any knowledge base to put the mask on their face.”

The doctor also slammed the unreliability of PCR tests, noting that “positive test results do not, underlined in neon, mean a clinical infection,” and that all testing should stop because the false numbers are “driving public hysteria.”

Hodkinson said that the risk of death in the province of Alberta for people under the age of 65 was “one in three hundred thousand,” and that it was simply “outrageous” to shut down society for what the doctor said “was just another bad flu.”

“I’m absolutely outraged that this has reached this level, it should all stop tomorrow,” concluded Dr. Hodkinson.

Hodkinson’s credentials are beyond question, with the MedMalDoctors website affirming his credibility.

“He received his general medical degrees from Cambridge University in the UK (M.A., M.B., B. Chir.) where he was a scholar at Corpus Christi College. Following a residency at the University of British Columbia he became a Royal College certified general pathologist (FRCPC) and also a Fellow of the College of American Pathologists (FCAP).”

“He is in good Standing with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta, and has been recognized by the Court of Queen’s Bench in Alberta as an expert in pathology.””

– Top Pathologist Claims Coronavirus is “The Greatest Hoax Ever Perpetrated on an Unsuspecting Public” –

https://www.infowars.com/posts/top-pathologist-claims-coronavirus-is-the-greatest-hoax-ever-perpetrated-on-an-unsuspecting-public/

Sauron

With the predicament ready, the unofficial media campaign against him shouldn’t come as a surprise. Certain someone has mastered the game of revolutions.

SevenMoons

Of course Russian propaganda.

But it is true that Armenia and Pashinyan would have had much better deals over all the previous “peace” negotiations. But then ended up receiving the worst “peace” deal.

Just admit the defeat and move on.

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