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Turkey Rejects US Patriot Systems Deal, Says It Will Get S-400 In July


Turkey Rejects US Patriot Systems Deal, Says It Will Get S-400 In July

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Turkey will receive its first batch of Russian S-400 Triumf air defense systems in July 2019 and will reject the US proposal for the procurement of the Patriot surface-to-air missile (SAM) system.

“The delivery of the S-400s will begin in July 2019. As of October, the system will be active. There are two systems, the second system’s calendar is set back, there is no problem,” the undersecretary of the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries (SSM), İsmail Demir, said in a televised interview.

In the same interview he said that Turkey cannot accept the criteria of the US proposal, since it demands for it to terminate the S-400 deal.

“We cannot accept the content and details of the offer as it is,” he said, as Turkey needs to acquire more than air defense systems.

On December 18th, the US State Department approved a possible sale of the Patriot air and missile defense system to Turkey for an estimated total of $3.5 billion.

On January 3rd, a US delegation formally made an offer to Turkey for the sale of Patriot systems.

Over the six weeks leading to February 22nd, two separate US delegations held talks with Turkish counterparts on the offer. One of them expressed concerns over the purchase of the Russian S-400 system and placing it on NATO soil. Washington stressed that it would supply the Patriot system only in the case that the S-400 is not purchased.

The U.S. put an informal deadline of Feb. 15 for Ankara to respond to its offer on the Patriot systems. According to Reuters, citing anonymous officials, the offer for the Patriot systems expires at the end of March.

The US offer did not commit to two major demands of Ankara: Providing credit and joint production.

Furthermore, Hurriyet reported on an increased pressure from Washington recently:

“In parallel to the Patriot negotiations, Washington increases pressure on Ankara for the cancellation of its deal with Russia on the procurement of the S-400 air missile defense systems on the grounds that the system risks NATO security both on political and technical grounds.

In the past few weeks, Washington has been carrying on with a silent diplomacy for its accelerated pressure on Ankara for the cancellation of the S-400 deal. In the latest move, last week, U.S. Vice President Mike Pence conveyed the U.S.’s concerns to Ankara on behalf of President Donald Trump and asked Turkey to abort its S-400 purchase.”

Following the mentioned phone conversation, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan emphasized on the fact that the S-400 deal between Ankara and Moscow is final and will not change.

“We made the S-400 deal with Russia, so it is out of the question for us to turn back. That’s done,” Erdoğan said.

Turkey officially signed a $2.5 billion agreement with Russia for the S-400s long-range anti-aircraft missile system.

The US has warned that the Russian S-400 may also put Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program in jeopardy.

“We are very concerned that the Turkish purchase of the S-400 missiles will endanger Turkish participation in the F-35 program and will likely result through our legislation in some sort of sanctions coming through the legislations called CAATSA [the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act],” a senior U.S. official told the Hürriyet Daily News on condition of anonymity. “So the U.S. government is of the view that we will not proceed with the patriot sale if Turkey proceeds with the S-400 purchase.”

Hurriyet also cited an anonymous Turkish official according to whom “Washington is concerned with the security risk that the S-400 system radars can pose on NATO defense capabilities, such as F-34 fighter jets. Americans believe that the S-400 radar can spy on Turkish territory exposing sensitive details of the F-35 performance, such as capturing minor patterns of F-35 flights despite its high stealth capability.”

The US is also concerned about the possibility of the Russian system’s radar monitoring on operational activities at İncirlik airbase.

Secondly, the US considers the S-400 procurement by Turkey as a security problem of NATO. Washington is worried on Turkey’s “deviation in its pursuit of security.”

Turkey has repeatedly invited NATO experts to assist in the installation of the S-400 to ensure that there would be no such threats.

Ismail Demir also said that the US will delivery two F-35 fighter jets to Turkey in March. However, on February 15th, U.S. President Donald Trump signed a spending bill that includes blocking transfers of F-35s to Turkey until November 1st, 2019 to give a plenty of time to see if the Russian S-400 air defense system will be delivered to Turkey.

Since the S-400 procurement seems final, it is unclear what will happen with Turkey’s participation in the F-35 project.



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  • Black Waters

    Interesting… wouldn’t be better to accept both?
    Can some expert enlighten us about this topic, what’s happening in Erdogan’s plans/mind.

    • Syria insider

      The Turks can only steal so much money from Syria. :)

      • Concrete Mike

        LOL well said.

        Fuck you Turkey!!!!

        • Syria insider

          Yes that’s correct, fuck the Turks. why do you think that they invade Syria for? To launch a fucking genocide against the Kurds and to plunder their towns and villages like they did in Afrin.

          • Concrete Mike

            In 2011 no one talked about kurds unless were talking about heroin smuggling.

            This Syria war was planned by mostly usa france AND turkey.

            The kurds just gave turkey a second round of looting, the first round was isis/al nusra “chaps”, and now to loot again!!
            Edit: greedy bastards cant help themselves.

          • Syria insider

            Dont forget a little shitty place called Israel they are even worse then turkey and friends.

          • Concrete Mike

            No the thieves dont even deserve my acknoledgement.

    • John Whitehot

      Turkey knows what’s better for their air defense.

      The two systems may cohexist, but once they got the S400, Patriot becomes kind of redundant.
      These are expensive arms, and there is no reason to buy the Patriot too only to appease zionists and US arms dealers.

      • Dawn

        Its not only about the quality – it is also an insurance policy… Supplier of air defense systems usually haw his ways to ensure, that those systems cannot be used against his own planes… So S 400 are danger mainly to USA and NATO (Israel) planes…

      • FlorianGeyer

        Its very unpatriotic of course for Erdogan to favour S400’s instead of the US boomerang Patriot missiles that are ‘only’ one billion pounds more expensive and not as effective.

        Will Elliot Abrams now be appointed as Envoy for Turkey :)

        • John Whitehot

          effectiveness can be debated, although not much detail the public can know about this kind of systems.

          What is known is that the S400 has a much wider engagement envelope and missile performance than the Patriot, which makes the latter redundant (in the sense you are not going to buy it AFTER you bought S400, while buying the S400s while already having Patriots upgrades your air defense considerably).

          Turkey also operates EU made SAMP-T missiles for the mid-range, which is a more modern and versatile system than the Patriot.

          what the pentagon is loathing at though, is the lies on the F-35 stealth characteristics being uncovered.

          Imagine how LM will be forced to abruptly drop the prices on the Lightning once it’s proven that it’s not invisible at all.

          As the program already is facing huge problems, it would probably be the end of it, with many countries cutting their orders or at least demanding new conditions. At least in countries where the leadership is not corrupted by zionists and the US MIC.

          • FlorianGeyer

            Even our Boys Own Defence Minister is not buying as many F35’s now and the Royal Navy F35’s are being reduced or cancelled. That’s what was said in the MSM a few weeks ago anyway.

            If the US F35’s are in fact as useless as even pundits in the US say they are. I hope Nato buys lots of them :)

      • Black Waters

        I see, thanks for the reply.

    • Nowruz

      For your first question, it can be answered by reading the article.

      For your second comment, nothing has changed with Erdogan’s plans. He would have happily accepted both the Patriot and the S400 systems but it was the US who wanted to maintain its hegemonic dominance in the military sector. In the US’ defense, it is a clear violation to buy weapons not approved by NATO so Turkey known about the consequences and were probably trying to see if the US would cave in (same for the US hopes that Turkey to give up S400 deal). Unfortunately for the US, Turkey wanted to keep the S400 and the US will not deliver the Patriot systems nor the F35s because Turkey would have without a doubt tested those S400 systems out.

    • Dawn

      Well.. The think with a S 400 is – that it can protect Turkey against NATO planes… Thats why they prefer s 400 against patriots…

      • Sinbad2

        Yes the S400 can detect and target stealth aircraft. US/NATO systems cannot detect stealth aircraft.

        • John Whitehot

          “US/NATO systems cannot detect stealth aircraft.”

          I’m not that sure. There’s a chance that the radars which the US builds and exports have means to “filter out” the F35 and F22 types even if they detect them.

          It would be certainly difficult to adopt such contraption on a NATO-wide basis, yet I suspect that it’s already been taken into account that after you order 200 F35, and then discover they aren’t stealthy, you’re not gonna make it public and start a crazy diatribe in which you have not much to gain – especially if LM puts money in your pockets. Know what I mean.

          • Sinbad2

            It’s not that simple, American and most other radars operate above 2 gigahertz.
            Stealth aircraft are designed to absorb those frequencies.
            Radar that can detect stealth aircraft operate at much lower frequencies.
            Trying to adapt an ordinary radar system would be the equivalent of converting an AM radio to receive television.

            The antenna on the right is low frequency radar, ever seen any American gear that size?

          • John Whitehot

            “Stealth aircraft are designed to absorb those frequencies”

            Most of the “stealth” effect (up to possibly 90%) is owed to reflecting incoming energy away from the observer, NOT absorbing it.

            This is why “stealth” fighters have peculiar designs. The most readily noticeable features, is that the lines making the wings and the ailerons are parallel.

            This brings up the first problems:

            – The observer will never be always perpendicular to the front of the plane, where the effect is optimized. It’s impossible to design a “stealth” plane from all aspects, as it still has to fly according to certain performance requirements.
            – in real life there will be more than one observer, possibly with different wavelenghts radars (example, IADS + EW + AWACS + Fighters + Ships). All these will be observing the target from different angles. With modern IADS, which are networked, all the data from all sensors is uploaded, computed, and redownloaded to the firing platforms.
            – Even if less energy is reflected to the observers, some of it is still received. Modern radars (and I mean Band X, not “meter wavelenghts or the like) are sensitive enough to observe small birds and possibly bees and flies. Signal processing embedded in the IADS discriminate and filter off real targets from clutter. In this case, 5th gen fighters may be even be more easily identified than older ones, because of the peculiarity of their returns.

            After all of the above:

            -Modern Air Defenses aren’t limited to radars, there is optical, sounding, space and other kinds of sensors all contributing to create an updated picture of the airspace.

            Conclusion 1:
            An air force using only 5th gen fighters will lose the air battle against a modern, well designed, trained and led air defense. The only air battle a 5th gen force can win is the one against adversaries with obsolete or incomplete air defense assets – the same type of enemy that a 4th gen force was already able to beat largely.

            Conclusion 2:
            the cost of conducting an air war with 5th gen assets against well prepared defenses will in itself be responsible for a large percentage of the defeat of the offending country.

    • Sinbad2

      Why waste money on crap?
      The Russian system is the worlds best.
      The US is replacing the Patriot with Aegis, the Patriot was always a lemon.

      • John Whitehot

        ahh the aegis.

        iirc, the only plane it downed is an Iranian A310 airliner in 1988.

  • potcracker777

    wrote exactly about the date of S-400 delivery in july yesterday, and operational in october and the consequences for SAA………

    • John Whitehot

      solomon said that solomon’s always right.

      nobody gave a damn.

  • potcracker777

    if SAA dont start the attack on afrin and idlib in latest April/may…… then afrin and idlib are lost forever!!!!

    as soon as S-400 is opeartional, Syrian airforce is totally useless from damascus to deir e zoor!!!!

    im going to check “backstabbing” now in Wikipedia………..probably going to read ” russias yes to TAF Invasion of syrian soil, russias NO for SAA to attack TAF, and russias selling S-400 to TAF”

    sarcasm out…..

    • Ray Douglas

      100% right. Syria should start now with or without Russia. Preferably with.

    • John Whitehot

      oh noes sholomon, not forever pleasee!!

  • Poor Turk

    Gets 2 planes shot down by the turks, sells them S400. Hopefully, more russian planes will get shot down, call it an accident later?

    • Dawn

      Another internet warrior with deep knowledge of WOT feels entitled to share his military ” insights” :))

      • Poor Turk

        but isnt it true that 2 planes were shot down, one Su24 by turkish F16 and one Su-25 by turkish terror groups in Idlib. 3rd and biggest Russian casuality was called an accident, humiliating all russians, lol.

        • Dawn

          I remember clueless “experts” of ur type to prognosis of huge loses of Russia in Syria, fall of Syria, war against Turkey, collapse of Russia economy, war against Israel and so on :))
          Reality so much different tough :) u “lol warrior”…

          • Poor Turk

            3 planes lost in “accident”, pay the families of the lost crews a handful of rubbles and tell em how turks and zionists are more worthy.

  • Sinbad2

    It’s like comparing a Porsche to a Chevy Malibu.
    No country free to make a decision based on performance would buy the Patriot system.

    • Albert Pike

      I don’t think the buyer of any SAM system is allowed to do what he want’s after he bought it. As you know his American system will not shoot down an invading American plane -against America’s will, and so the same his Russian system, which mostlikely also will not shoot down a Russian plane – if Russia doesn’t like it.

      So because of that a buyer usually makes a decision along his political affiliation, and the performance part will always only come second. But since Erdogan isn’t anylonger sure who his friend or foe is, he likes to have two systems. Use the Russian one, to shot at american planes, and use the american one to shoot russion ones…

      • Sinbad2

        The American Patriots do and have shot down British planes.

        • Albert Pike

          The Patriots will shoot down anything if they want – even their own. With smaller calibers it’s then called suicide…

    • Jens Holm

      Yerrrh, we are all strupid dependend of USA and we buy junk.

      In the other hand we have the clever ones like You :)

      • Sinbad2

        “Yerrrh, we are all strupid dependend of USA and we buy junk.”
        Yep you are 100% right.

    • occupybacon

      Only difference is Chevy is American and Porsche is German, how about the Russian Lada?

  • Poor Turk

    Iran is friends with russia longer than turkey and has much better relationship than turkey has with russia, yet Iran cant get S-400 because it is a threat to Israel, who is not a threat to Israel can get S-400 from Russia.

    • Sinbad2

      “S-400 because it is a threat to Israel

      S-400’s are not attack missiles, they are defensive weapons.
      Has Iran asked to buy S-400’s?
      No your just another Hasbara fkwit.

      • Poor Turk

        You are having a hard time when someone with a different opionion comments, better call him hasbara and defend ourselves that way

        • Sinbad2

          Has Iran asked to buy S-400’s?

          • Tommy Jensen

            Why should they await another 9 years from contract to supply of S-400?

    • Dawn

      First there is no such a thing in international relations as “friends” – that is a childs logic..
      Second – Iran did get latest S 300 with capabilities close to the S 400 (to deter Israeli airstrikes it is sufficient)

      Third – with sell of S 400 Russia is making allies not only between Russia and Turkey, but also Turkey with Iran – and that is a huge help to Iran

  • Poor Turk

    Russia sells S-400 to the USA, southfront non-russians supportes call it an amazing move.

    • Concrete Mike

      Fuck off hasbara peice of shit! There a boogger in jacob’s nose, get in the truck and go pull it out!

    • Bob

      These sorts of weapons systems are complex long term projects – and designers create domestic and export variants. The domestic units have all the latest upgrades and developments – the export models are built down to a price and do not contain the most sensitive developments and upgrades. Selling advanced hardware is always putting it out into the wild – and as an example, Ukraine is now trading their (older non upgraded) S-300 system parts to US military for assessment. The Russian’s are well aware of this and will supply Turkey an export system that minimizes compromising their own hard earned development technologies. However, on the other hand, Turkey operating a contemporary Russian missile system will likely mean that Russia can network the radar data on NATO aircraft operating from Turkey – at the NATO regional hub Incirlik air base.

      • John Whitehot

        sadly, some people have been watching movies like “Firefox”, or “Hunt for Red October”.

        With those, their connection to the real world has been crippled.

        • Tommy Jensen

          The Hollywood movie “Schindler´s list” tells the true story about how 60 mio people were killed in WWII because they tried to save 6 mio.

          • Barba_Papa

            Not really though. The Western Allies knew that something was happening in the death camps, there were escapees who had made it to Allied lines by 1943. There were some Allied politicians who argued that air attacks should be made against Auschwitz, it could have been done, there were Allied units specialized into precision tactical bombing, but Allied generals resisted, totally focused on terrorbombing Germany into submission, and Allied leaders weren’t interested in it either. It was only after Soviet and Allied troops reached the death camps that they all started to feign shock and abhorrence.

            Thing is, before WW2 American and British politicians weren’t that immune to antisemitism either. It’s only after WW2 that Jewish leaders in then Palestine and as leaders of the new state of Israel began to exploit Western guilt at not having stopped the holocaust by making them write a blank cheque of unconditional support for the state of Israel.

  • Tommy Jensen

    …..and the Turkish Army has already been full professional trained to handle the S-400 immediately when they arrive in July…………………LOL.

  • Redadmiral

    Yanki Cockroaches trying their best to sell crappy Patriot system at a billion $ mark up. This might now open up the possibility of Turkey purchasing the superior Russian SU-57. Double loss for Yanki mic with double gain for Russian AD systems and Aircraft technology. And let’s not overlook the wedge which is being driven further and further in between Turkey and NATO.

  • Jens Holm

    My biggest question is, which those missiles are against…

  • Jens Holm

    Very strange the many video debaters forget Turkey already has many missiles and many, many aircrafts.

    If there really was a war with none stopping it, Assads has no chance on ground as well as in the air.

  • You can call me Al

    “The US has warned that the Russian S-400 may also put Turkey’s participation in the F-35 program in jeopardy.” -> You lucky Turkish jammy gits.