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Turkey Deploys Leopard 2 Tanks On Border With Syria (Video)

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On February 21, the Turkish Armed Forces deployed several Leopard 2A4 battle tanks in the southern province of Hatay on the border with Syria.

RT shared a video of the German-made battle tanks passing through Hatay on their carriers. The Russian network said that the battle tanks will likely be deployed later in the northwestern Syrian region of Greater Idlib.

Several recent reports by Syrian opposition sources claimed that Leopard battle tanks were deployed in Greater Idlib. However, only Turkish M60 Sabra MK II battle tanks were spotted in the Syrian region.

Turkey Deploys Leopard 2 Tanks On Border With Syria (Video)

Click to see full-size image

The Syrian Arab Army (SAA) and the Russian Aerospace Forces (VKS) have destroyed at least five M60 Sabras of the Turkish Armed Forces in Greater Idlib, thus far. Four of the tanks were destroyed in the failed Turkish-led attack on the town of al-Nayrab two days ago.

The battle of al-Bab between Turkish-led forces and ISIS saw the first use of Leopard 2A4 battle tanks in Syria. Back then, the German tanks performed poorly, with Turkey losing at least 10 to anti-tank fire and suicide attacks.

Turkey may be planning to use Leopard tanks in a new attack on SAA positions in Greater Idlib. The Leopards will not likely give Turkish forces and their local proxies any advantage as they are not immune to heavy aerial bombs and artillery shells, which destroyed the Sabras near al-Nayrab.

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  • MinoMoto

    Range: 500km?

  • Hrky75

    It takes a moderately sharp can opener to deal with this particular piece of crap…Or a Kornet ATGM …whatever is at hand…

  • Assad must stay

    ooh i bet the syrians are shaking in fear lmao these will be cooked soon too

    • Jakke1899

      Yes, it might be better to rename the Leopard to “Turkey cooker”.

      • FlorianGeyer

        Lol.

      • Zionism = EVIL

        Even the Germans are embarrassed as this was their “best” tank and the Turkeys incompetence ruined their reputation.

        The Germans took a lot of pride in their Leopard II panzer before the Turkish inept military got its hands on it

        Germany’s Leopard 2 Tank Was Considered One of the Best in NATO— Until It Went to Syria and met the Russian Kornet head on.

        Cold War tanks encounter 21st century tactics and meet a new generation of Russian ATGM and come out second best.

  • Barba_Papa

    The Leopards will not likely give Turkish forces and their local proxies any advantage as they are not immune to heavy aerial bombs and artillery shells, which destroyed the Sabras near al-Nayrab.

    Not just artillery. As ISIS proved ATGW’s eat them up for breakfast. And the Turks STILL haven’t upgraded them. It’s like they want to lose them. Kraus-Maffei is probably groaning at the impact of more destroyed Leo 2’s.

    • EveryoneIsBiased

      Yeah, there are some inofficial statements by Kreuss-Maffai Wegmann being seriously pissed how the Turks give the Leo2 a bad name.

      The tanks has not been developed for COIN, but for heavy frontal armour to protect in tank battles. But there are upgrades availabe for COIN with better side armour and protection. I am unsure if the Turks just did not want to upgrade, or if they were not allowed to.

      With upgrades, they work very well even now in Afghanistan, having saved many lives, and troops are sending greeting and thank you notes to Krauss Maffei for saving their lives.

      Anyway, Turks are too incompetent.. And even against ISIS in Al-Bab, the Turks could only take the city are reportedly paying millions to ISIS in bribes.

      • alejandro casalegno

        The tanks ARE useful in COIN………..but not in dumb hands like the turkish!!!

        • EveryoneIsBiased

          ;)

      • bytetracer

        There was additional reason for bad performance of Leo. Turks heavily underestimated ISIS (as well as SAA in Nayrab). Those people were fighting battles for 5+ years, it was stupid to expect they will get scared of some tank in urban area. It was not like they didn’t see it before and didn’t know how to deal with it.

        • Barba_Papa

          That’s what you get when you replace competent officers with yes men. They’ll just carry out whatever stupid order the Sultan of Ankara tells them to do and will be more busy doing politics then being officers. Like you said, for more then 5 years Turkey has been funneling ATGW’s into Syria and the operators have to send videos back of those ATGW’s hitting SAA tanks to get new ones. You’d think that after those 5 years of seeing those videos you’d prepare for your tanks to be possibly on the receiving end. But they did fuck all.

          Come to think about it not even those competent officers might have saved those Turkish tankers because prior to the coup those officers did fuck all about modernizing their Leopard 2’s as well. By the time of the battle of Al Bab the Leopard 2A5 and A6 variants had been out what? For 20 years? NATO troops like Canada and Denmark take superior Leopard 2A5 and A6 variants to Afghanistan and still upgraded them for COIN operations as well. The Turks get cheap Leopard 2A4’s and do fuck all with them for 20 years as far as upgrades are concerned. It’s like they don’t know the concept that if you don’t upgrade your military gear they become less effective and more vulnerable with time. Like they have an Arab mindset of ‘we got lots of tanks, we got lots of aircraft, we are mighty!’ It doesn’t work that way.

          I know think that if WW3 had happened the Red Army and its Warsaw Pac allies would have steamrollered the Turks.

          • bytetracer

            Couldn’t agree more.

          • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

            You might be interested in hearing that Denmark said yes to upgrade our Leo 2A5 to 2A7 standards.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            Any more news on the Franco-German new tank program?

          • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

            I havent checked, so i cant answer that one, sorry.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            They say they will have a tank in production for 2035, while Spain and some other nations are set to join the program.

            So much for the death of the tank.

          • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

            Yeah i heard that, but havent dived into the subject.
            Perhaps i should.
            Thanks for the heads up.

      • Barba_Papa

        It’s like the Turks seem incapable to grasp the concept that if you don’t upgrade your gear it becomes less effective in time. Like they think that if you have lots of gear, even obsolete crap, you are therefore mighty. This is how Arab rulers think. How Saddam thought that his large army could take on the US, or how MBS thought that the Saudi army could take on the Houthis.

  • Lone Ranger

    According to pics they lost at least two of these sofar.

  • Daniel Martin

    The truth is that without air cover, (which by the way the Turks are denied by the Russians over Syrian skies) these tanks will be just another target practice for the Russian and Syrian air forces.

    • Jesus

      ISIS knocked out Leopard A4 Turkish tanks using second hand ATGM with accurate placement in vulnerable areas. Turkish tank crews are not very professional by parking their tanks in vulnerable areas.

  • Jim Bim

    Retake and close the border to the Turks, or bomb the border crossing.
    its stupid to let the Turks drive dozens of convoys into Syria.

    • Xoli Xoli

      Their driving in Syria fearlessly because no one attacks them.

      • Jim Bim

        Today a Turkish military convoy in the town of Al-Barah in Idlib countryside was shelled.
        A number of Turkish forces soldiers were also injured.

  • alejandro casalegno

    Leopard 2 vs T-90…………the most exiting tank duel in the last 20 years!!!!!!

  • Raptar Driver

    Looks like the Turks are serious.
    NATO is backing them?
    Does the average Russian understand or is this disconnect in the Putin Government?

    • Justin

      When will [YOU] Learn? Huh?? WHEN???

      7 June 2015 The Question was asked!
      September 2015 Russia Answered the Question!

      https://youtu.be/GKdk7xCiuUk?t=25

      Message sent: Message Received!
      Russia didnt GIVE A FUCK Then!
      And they CLEARLY dont give a fuck now!

      Super powers do whatever the FUCK they WANT! Sanctions or No Sanctions!

      When will YOU Learn? Huh?? WHEN???

      • John

        I retrospect, Senator McCain was an arrogant and dangerous fool. Everything he said in the video turned out to be 100% baloney. I wish he were live to see what has happened since then.

        • rightiswrong rightiswrong

          I wish his darned parachute had failed back when he was bombing women and children in Vietnam.

          But then we wouldn’t have seen him sucker up to his captors.

      • Raptar Driver

        Settle down sparky.
        Who the fuck listens to insane Mcain?
        Apparently only insane people?

    • Arch Bungle

      You’ve got things ass-backwards.
      The Russians and Syrians are serious.
      Erdogan is disconnected from reality.

    • rightiswrong rightiswrong

      NATO is not backing them.
      They already said that this is outside the scope of Article 5, as Turkey is allied to another power, aka Russia, Iran and Syria, remember the Astana Agreement?

      Pompous Mike doesn’t speak for NATO, maybe you should listen to NATO directly.

  • Ronald

    I do like the photos of baked tanks still on the trucks, would like to see more.

  • SnowCatzor

    Turkey better hope it doesn’t lose too many Leopard 2’s if it decides to put them into action. Germany refuses to sell or even upgrade them anymore, so if everyone lost is impossible to replace. In contrast, at least the Saudi’s can just order fresh armour from Uncle Sam.

    • CHAOS

      Maybe Turkey is a way to take out this garbage. A kind of garage arrangement: D

      • Arch Bungle

        Considering their own soldiers to be garbage says a lot about their future as a military power.

        • CHAOS

          I meant from a military vehicle point of view.Supplier.

          • Arch Bungle

            I thought that there’d be at least some Turkish crew in harms way.

  • MeMad Max

    These tanks are useless.
    The SAA isn’t stupid, and wont go toe to toe in a tank battle with these things.

    They will just stand back and make them into Sukhoi food lol

  • John

    They will look fabulous on fire.

  • I am wondering, what is the public opinion in Turkey about this warmongering of their president? I dont think that turkish mothers loved to see their sons becoming martyrs for such a stupid cause.

    • Arch Bungle

      From my analysis of media over the past few weeks, the Turkish public is being intensively lied to. They’re under the impression things are going swimmingly in Syria.

      • The German media is the same, nonstop propaganda about the brutal regime, the hospital bombing Russians and the freezing children in Idlib. This works with an willfull ignorant public, but Germany is not at war with Syria, like Turkey, I mean there must be many citizens asking question about the marching troops.

  • Willing Conscience (The Truths

    The Syrian war is proving tanks are becoming all but obsolete, I’ve never seen so many battle tanks destroyed as I have in this war, man portable heavy weapons are certainly becoming the tanks greatest threat on the ground. Now they’re actually being used more like fire support vehicles than they are front line assault vehicles, otherwise they’re easily and quickly killed off on the battlefront.

    • Arch Bungle

      The IDF interventions in lebanon over the past 40+ years provided clear evidence of the obsolesence of tanks. Yet those fools kept pissing money into the mobile paperweight called merkava.

    • rightiswrong rightiswrong

      The Russians have just built the T-14, next generation tank, such is their belief in the effectifness of a big gun on a mobile armoured platform.
      The use of ATGWs promised the end of the tank back in the Yom Kippur war, when Egyptian ATGWs destroyed the initial waves of Israeli tanks in open battle, but it was Israeli tank units which secured their victory, with air cover and new tactics for tanks.

      I suppose if the Syrians could afford it, they would much prefer a large force of Boomerang and or Kurganet AFVs, and more Terminators, to supplement a more elite tank force, but that could never happen during a war in which NATO provide instant weapons to the head choppers, and finances.

      Tanks have always been at a disadvantage in built up areas, but they are indispensable for protecting large areas. ATGW teams can be spotted by drone and troop screens before tanks approach unsuitable terrain. Syrian tankers have managed to drastically cut the tank losses with new tactics and drills. Close support troops for tanks, and as you say, use them as fire support in contested areas, while they can manoeuvre or transit to cut off a retreating force.
      The Syrians still haven’t lost a T-90 to enemy ATGWs, despite the capture of one, so there must be some life in the dog of a well designed tank.

      • goingbrokes

        T55s still keep trundling along the roads and fields of Idlib.

        • rightiswrong rightiswrong

          T34s still fighting today, the Turks are using M60 Pattons ffs.

          A tank is a mobile gun, which can easily be up graded with sighting, lasers, radar etc etc. New engines, transmission, tracks, can transform any dated tank into a modern day tank with some shortcomings.
          The B52 was built in the 1950s, but it still presents a modern threat with up grades, ditto Tu95.

          • goingbrokes

            That’s right, what amazes me is that the T55s must have done a lot of mileage, to put it mildly!

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            They certainly have seen some service since first arriving, that’s for sure. I’ve seen videos where WW2 era T34s were pulled out of marshes, and after a brief clean up, some have started!

      • Willing Conscience (The Truths

        “Russia will not mass-produce its new third-generation T-14 Armata main battle tank (MBT) as it is too costly, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told Russian media on July 30. Instead, the Russian military will continue to rely on older platforms such as the T-72B3s (fitted with explosive reactive armor), an upgraded variant of the original Soviet-era T-72 MBT, or the T-90A MBT, according to Borisov.”
        ..

        But if the Egyptians had’ve had effective air defense capabilities would the tanks have been as effective without air support.
        A anti tank launcher costs are as low as 30k for low tech models and up to 120k for high tech stuff, the missiles from as low as 15k to 80k, and a 2 man crew needs just 2 weeks of training to operate them effectively, a tank costs anywhere from 1 to 20 mill, takes months to train a 3 or 4 man crew, and they drain a countries fuel resources faster than anything but planes, not to mention maintenance costs.

        • rightiswrong rightiswrong

          Russia has no need to mass develop any tank, due to the massive amount of reserve tanks they already have. The Russians are building over 2000 T14s, despite your ridiculous claim they can’t afford it.
          The first 100 serially produced tank are on the production line as you quote the CIA and their usual shyte.

          But if this, but if that, in the end of the day, the Israeli tank forces eventually overcame the tactic of using ATGWs.
          All modern militaries rely on the tank, despite the continued existence of ATGWs and Ka52Mil28 Apache.
          As you now know, helicopters carry ATGWs, and still there are more tanks than choppers in a modern military.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            I’m quoting Russia’s deputy prime minister, that’s what he said, didn’t you see the quotes,

            “Russia will not mass-produce its new third-generation T-14 Armata main battle tank (MBT) as it is too costly, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told Russian media on July 30. Instead, the Russian military will continue to rely on older platforms such as the T-72B3s (fitted with explosive reactive armor), an upgraded variant of the original Soviet-era T-72 MBT, or the T-90A MBT, according to Borisov.”

            So Russia designed a new improved tank despite the fact the tanks they already had in stock were more than good enough to do the job required, and now they’re going to stop mass producing the new tanks because they really don’t need them because it’s cheaper and just as effective to modify the old ones.
            But no other countries are developing new tanks now, China is the latest 2015 but it was a light tank, not a MBT, and they developed their newest MBT back in 2000.
            Everyone’s developing new assault vehicles, artillery, aviation, etcetera, but no ones developing new tanks anymore, I wonder why?

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            I don’t read CIA pamphlets, but a simple Wiki check would tell you that the Armata program has been extended to 2025. Production tanks are undergoing State testing, as is normal for any new tank or other military gear produced by Russia.
            Russia has no need for mass production, Britain built 400 Challengers decades ago, without replacement. Same as France, build 400 then watch their force shrink. Russia will replace their tanks with T14 not by eliminating thousands of T72s in one go, but by gradual replacement at a steady rate. You forget the Japanese new tank, as well as Turkish, S Korean new tanks, so obviously you are slow or else just trolling.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            I don’t think you can read at all, this is what I quoted and you called a CIA pamplett,

            “”Russia will not mass-produce its new third-generation T-14 Armata main battle tank (MBT) as it is too costly, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told Russian media on July 30. Instead, the Russian military will continue to rely on older platforms such as the T-72B3s (fitted with explosive reactive armor), an upgraded variant of the original Soviet-era T-72 MBT, or the T-90A MBT, according to Borisov.”

            and this is what the wiki article says,

            “In July 2018, Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry Yury Borisov said there is currently no need to mass-produce the Armata when its older predecessors, namely the latest variants of the T-72, remain “effective against American, German and French counterparts”, saying, “Why flood our military with Armatas, the T-72s are in great demand on the market(s).”[20][29] Instead, a modernization program of the T-72s, T-80s and T-90s in-service will take precedence.[30] In August 2018, at the ARMY2018 Forum outside Moscow, the Russian Ministry of Defense signed a contract for the purchase of 32 T-14s tanks and 100 T-15 infantry fighting vehicles, with delivery to be finished by 2021.[31] In 2019 it was announced that the first 12 tanks would be delivered by the end of that year,[23] but by November the delivery forecast slipped to “late 2019 or early 2020.”[32] In mid January 2020 the head of Rostec said no Armata-platform vehicles including T-14 tanks had been delivered, and in February the CEO of Uralvagonzavod only said that Armata-platform armour (not necessarily T-14 tanks) would start shipping in 2020.[33]. Furthermore, also in February 2020 it became evident that the set of requirements for the intended engine of the tank were not met by the construction bureau and the project of development of the engine would be closed in first quarter of 2020, futher delaying the introduction of the tank for an unspecified time”

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-14_Armata

            And this is how old the newest Japanese tank is,
            “Development began in the 1990s, with a prototype revealed in February 2008. In January 2012, thirteen Type 10 tanks entered JGSDF service.”
            30 years ago to 12 years ago.”

            And this is how old the newest Turkish tank is,
            “On 16 November 2012, two Altay prototypes successfully passed initial acceptance tests, paving the way for serial production 2 years earlier than expected, with two more prototypes to be built by 2013 or 2014”.
            11 years ago to 6 years ago.

            And this is how old the newest Korean tank is,
            “Mass production commenced in 2013 and the first K2s were deployed with the armed forces in June 2014.”
            So at least 7 years and whatever before that, probably back in 1999.

            So 6 years, 7 years, and 12 years, and that’s for the newest of the new, I don’t think any countries are too interested in designing new tanks anymore, new missiles, drones and aircraft maybe, but not tanks.

            You should probably change your name to wrongisright rightiswrong.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            Go duck off and play with the little girls you ducking prize p rick.

            You said only Russia is developing new tanks, and then admit that many nations are, or have recently designed and built new tanks!

            You ducking as shole.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            How can you tell the difference between a comment made by a LGBTQI proponent and a comment made by an LGBTQI opponent, just look for the one that’s rude and obnoxious first and that’s the LGBTQI one.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            I can tell you are a ducking prize p rick, after I ducked your wife. She will tell you how much of a man she got, and she says you duck like a boy, a man is what she needs.

            Got that loser!

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            More typical faggot talk, of course you’re a fag and the worst kind of fag, I’d be more scared of you being around male children than I would my girlfriend, go watch a LGBTQI video and shut up, and you’re false bravado just make you look like an idiot, threatening to come around and rape my girlfiend, if she didn’t kill you first I would, and with my bare hands.
            You lost as as soon as you started being rude, fag loser, go have a cry for a while,

            “despite your ridiculous claim they can’t afford it.”

            But it’s a direct quote from the Russian deputy prime minister you stupid fag.

            ” “I don’t read CIA pamphlets, but a simple Wiki check would tell you that the Armata program has been extended to 2025.”

            But it was a copy and paste from a wiki page with the quote from Russia’s deputy prime minister you stupid fag.

            “”so obviously you are slow or else just trolling.”

            And you’re obviously a raping homosexual, I can tell from these 3 comments, PURE FAG. Go F–k youself you dumb LGBTQI fag.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            Your bare hands are usually full of KY Gel.

            You couldn’t fight your way out of a wet paper bag you ducking as shole.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            What girlfriend?

            You dock muckers are priceless.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            Also France, Germany and Spain are planning to introduce their tank in 2035, don’t you trolls do any research?

            Of course not, as you are a ducking prize p rick.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            No I don’t do much research on what’s happening in the field of tank development, my original comment was just an observation and a prediction due to my observations, my knowledge of MBT’s has only increased since you sent me that last comment,

            “You forget the Japanese new tank, as well as Turkish, S Korean new tanks, so obviously you are slow or else just trolling.”

            I quickly looked them up to see if you were correct, our definitions of “new tanks” are not in sync, 6 to 12 years isn’t a new tank in my books, though I do understand they don’t design new models every year, more like once a decade.
            And why didn’t you mention France, Germany and Spain on your last comment, it would have been a lot more enlightening to say that instead of mentioning the newest 6 to 12 year old Japanese, S. Korean, and Turkish tanks.

            Are you upset with my,

            “You should probably change your name to wrongisright rightiswrong.”

            comment, then perhaps you shouldn’t have said this,

            “The Russians are building over 2000 T14s, despite your ridiculous claim they can’t afford it. The first 100 serially produced tank are on the production line as you quote the CIA and their usual shyte.”

            But the quote was from the Russian deputy prime minister, you dumb LGBTQI retard, and you shouldn’t have said this either,

            “I don’t read CIA pamphlets, but a simple Wiki check would tell you that the Armata program has been extended to 2025.”

            But again I was just quoting what the Russian deputy prime minister Yuri Borisov said, I had no idea he worked for the CIA, I’m so glad you’ve broken a Russian spy ring, you’ll get medals for this, LOL.
            And you also said this,

            “so obviously you are slow or else just trolling.”

            Am I, gee and here I was thinking it was you doing the trolling. The LGBTQI organization has changed the meaning of absolutely everything, even trolling has a new definition, you’re very enlightening aren’t you.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            Good to know you are a self confessed p rick.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            Only to rude fags who think they can get away with it :]

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            But still, you admitted to being a p rick.

            Not often that happens, a p rick identifying themselves. Good on you, p rick.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            You should change your name to Willing Troll{poorly paid troll}

            Of course you don’t do research, you just post what you are given, dumb schmuck.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            You said,

            “The Russians have just built the T-14, next generation tank, such is their belief in the effectifness of a big gun on a mobile armoured platform.”

            So I did some research and found this,

            “Russia will not mass-produce its new third-generation T-14 Armata main battle tank (MBT) as it is too costly, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told Russian media on July 30. Instead, the Russian military will continue to rely on older platforms such as the T-72B3s (fitted with explosive reactive armor), an upgraded variant of the original Soviet-era T-72 MBT, or the T-90A MBT, according to Borisov.”

            And you called it a CIA pamplett, but the wiki itself says the same thing my copy and paste did,

            “In July 2018, Deputy Prime Minister for Defence and Space Industry Yury Borisov said there is currently no need to mass-produce the Armata when its older predecessors, namely the latest variants of the T-72, remain “effective against American, German and French counterparts”, saying, “Why flood our military with Armatas, the T-72s are in great demand on the market(s).”[20][29] Instead, a modernization program of the T-72s, T-80s and T-90s in-service will take precedence.[30] In August 2018, at the ARMY2018 Forum outside Moscow, the Russian Ministry of Defense signed a contract for the purchase of 32 T-14s tanks and 100 T-15 infantry fighting vehicles, with delivery to be finished by 2021.[31] In 2019 it was announced that the first 12 tanks would be delivered by the end of that year,[23] but by November the delivery forecast slipped to “late 2019 or early 2020.”[32] In mid January 2020 the head of Rostec said no Armata-platform vehicles including T-14 tanks had been delivered, and in February the CEO of Uralvagonzavod only said that Armata-platform armour (not necessarily T-14 tanks) would start shipping in 2020.[33]. Furthermore, also in February 2020 it became evident that the set of requirements for the intended engine of the tank were not met by the construction bureau and the project of development of the engine would be closed in first quarter of 2020, futher delaying the introduction of the tank for an unspecified time”
            https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FT-14_Armata%3AlylXtKT-YvcT5NEZ4gmZEaiHzUc&cuid=3606370

            What’s the difference you dickhead, none, you stupid fag, NONE.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            I should change my name to – Danger, ‘rude’ fags beware – that way d-ck liickers like you know what you’re getting yourselves into when you want to try be rude to me for no good reason, go cry to one of your boyfriends, they might give a shit, I don’t.

          • rightiswrong rightiswrong

            Danger rude fag is your new name?

            Fitting.
            A ducking p rick who says there are moderate rebels in Idlib, know duck all about military matters, and is a fag.

    • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

      MBT´s arent obsolete.
      The Syrian tank tactics was all based on meeting the Israeli´s in the Golan Heights and the following open fields in a tank vs tank scenario, not against a single RPG on the 5th floor in a residential area.
      The Syrians have lost a lot of tanks due to idiotic crews, shitty tactics, low maintenance and a stiff and static leadership.
      Look at the initially use of tanks and APC/IFV in the battle of Darayya, a absolutely disgrace of crewmanship, but they learned, and they became worldclass good.
      They needed to learn how to use tanks properly in build up areas, they have learned, but at a massive cost.
      Nothing to do with the equipment, everything to do with the crew and tactics.
      The turks also needs to learn; and the most effective motivator for evolution is failure, lets see if they do.

      The Leo 2 was build for meeting masses of Soviet/Russian tanks on the wide plains of western Europe, a job it would do very well.
      A well designed and, more importantly, well operated tank by a skillfull crew, is still a very capable and fearsome weapon on the 21st battlefield.
      Too much is invested in tanks and the all-arms cooperation in every modern army for the tank to be obsolete.
      One day the tank will be obsolete yes, but not today.

      In the end, its skill and training, or the lack of, that desides whether a weapon is effective or not.
      It seems that to few people have the insight to realise that you cant fix stupid; you cant build something that is a winner in the hands of loosers.

      • Willing Conscience (The Truths

        “Russia will not mass-produce its new third-generation T-14 Armata main battle tank (MBT) as it is too costly, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov told Russian media on July 30. Instead, the Russian military will continue to rely on older platforms such as the T-72B3s (fitted with explosive reactive armor), an upgraded variant of the original Soviet-era T-72 MBT, or the T-90A MBT, according to Borisov.”

        I wonder why.
        I agree with the Russians, don’t keep building newer version of an obsolete weapon, just stick to the old stuff until you can design new toys that will actually be effective.
        A anti tank launcher costs are as low as 30k for low tech models and up to 120k for high tech stuff, the missiles from as low as 15k to 80k, and a 2 man crew needs just 2 weeks of training to operate them effectively, a tank costs anywhere from 1 to 20 mill, it takes months to train a 3 or 4 man crew, and they drain a countries fuel resources faster than anything but planes, not to mention maintenance costs.

        • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

          The reason why Russia wont mass produced T-14, at the moment, is that there are thousands upon thousands of very good T-72/T-80T-90 frames still around, the return on the investment is much higher for an upgrade instead of a new build.
          A new build requires, among other things: New engine, new gun, new gearbox, new threads, new electronics, new spareparts, new training facilities etc.
          All those thing requires a lot of resources and could take years and years to get into a final stable product.
          An upgrade, depending on the scale, could take as little as a few weeks.

          No where does any army say that the tank is a obsolete weapon, the majority of armies says that it a very good investment to upgrade old stock rather than building new ones.
          Just like planes and ships.
          De facto they say the tank is not a obsolete weapon and it worth keeping, upgrading and maintaining, the exact opposite of what your are saying.

          Where ever infantry is going, firesupport is needed, and tanks provided that right-here-right-now-no-delay-no-red-tape firesupport, and opposite IDF(indirect fire), a tank can place a shot within a CEP of 1-2 meters from 0 meters to several kilometers, ive seen that with my own eyes.
          Just one or two shots from a tank supporting INF, can make or break the entire battle.

          The billions poured into the protection of the tank also tells that it is worth protecting.

          The cry about tanks becomming obsolete when the ATGM arrived, is the same cry that dogfights where history when BVR arrived, that supprise is history when radar arrived, that planes where history when SAM/MANPAD/AAA arrived, that surface ships where history when subs arrived, that aircraft carriers where history when ASM arrived, that conventional weapons where history when nuclear weapons arrived, that guns in aircraft was history when missiles arrived.
          Do you get my point?
          No doubt, that one day, the above will be obsolete, but not today.

          The only thing that is obsolete in this world, is humans, we keep failing, keep dying, keep destroying everything around us, and we never learn.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            I totally agree with the last part of your comment except that I’d say that we never learn until it’s too late.
            And I also agree with your reference to lack of operator skills being a determining factor in many of the tank losses in Syria, but the fact remains that tanks can be beaten way too easily, and by cost effective means, and on top of that we now have other weapons and equipment that can fulfil the role tanks once served.
            Artillery range and accuracy have improved, drones and aviation [especially choppers] can fulfill many of the same roles tanks do, assault vehicles and man portable anti tank missiles also fill some of the same same roles.
            The only thing a tank can do that none of it’s substitutes can do is hold a position and take punishment, apart from that the tanks other roles are all covered, but the tanks ability to withstand punishment is being subverted by the ability to deliver growing amounts of punishment.
            Armour strength has probably doubled over the last few decades but offensive power has increased tenfold, if they’re not obsolete yet they will be soon.
            How many new models of tanks have been designed recently apart from the Armata, not many countries seem too interested in designing new tanks, and since the Russians are discontinuing production on their new tanks, I’d be taking that as an ominous sign they’re becoming obsolete.

          • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

            The tank is a popular target on the battlefield yes.
            But artillery and direct tank fire cannot be compared, and they cannot replace each other.
            The artillery have range, power and versatility on its side, and the tank have instant surgical precision and instant shift of fire to its advantage.

            I served at the Jutland Dragoons for two years and we fought arm in arm with our Leo 2´s.
            I learned how important they are to the infantry and how important infantry is to them.

            After being deployed to iraq as a MECHINF, i was a gunner on our 60mm mortars.
            There i learned how “slow” artillery fire is compared to tank fire; With a tank you just yell over the radio: 2nd floor, 1st from left MG position.
            No more than 10 seconds later a 120mm HEAT exploded could be exploding in that exact room.
            With artillery you cant do that, imagine that you have the lower two floors and the two top ones, the enemy just dont want to let go of the third floor, you cant call in artillery because you occupy the top floor, and artillery shells comes from the top and down.
            A tank could send a shell directly into the room in question, even with friendly units a room or two away.

            Tanks have limitations and are vulnerable to many weapons, and some of its roles have been replaced by more effective weapons, and we learned by the tankcrew themselves that a tank aint more tough that the pin holding the tracks together, litterally.
            A tank with a broken tracks is a very expensive lump of metal.

            Yes artillery can be used as ad hoc tanks and a tank can be used as artillery, but a Porsche 911 can also be used as a moving vehicle, its just not effective at it.

            Helicopters and planes are way more expensive than tanks and artillery combined, and you cant win a war without boots on the ground and metal inside the target.

            I think the reason why the arrival of new tank designs have slowed down the last few decades, is that it just to expensive to start from scratch when theres not really a need for it.
            The gap is closing between the IFV and tanks with the arrival of the HIFV, heavier and heavier weapons are being mounted on IFV, giving them the role the tank had previously.
            I guess that we can agree that a IFV/HIFV would be more effective as a firesupport vehicle in build areas than a tank.

            But the tank still have those unique qualities that just cant be missed on the battlefield.
            At least not yet.

            Im thinking that dronetanks/crewless tanks will arrive “soon”.
            Without a crew you can shed alot of armor, lower the height of the tank and spare all of the crewsupport equipment, giving room for more ammo and bigger guns in a smaller package.
            The swedish S-tank was perhaps to far ahead of its time.
            Just a shame with the fixed gun, it kinda killed it.
            When the crewless tank idea have been exhausted, then i think the tank, as we know it, will leave the battlefield.

            Thank you for your views, its always healthy to get new impressions and views.
            One is quickly to get stagnant views and oppinions.

          • Willing Conscience (The Truths

            Open desert warfare is the one place above all others that tanks would still be effective, providing they had adequate AA support of course, the combination of mobility, offensive power and range, and their durability, would all be assets in open desert warfare, though they’d still be vulnerable to attacks by faster light assault vehicles.
            You’re game admitting you served in Iraq, that won’t make you popular on the SF forums, but must say I’m totally opposed to any foreign interventions unless they’re invited in, Iraq Libya and Syria as prime examples, but I won’t hold it against you.
            Yes it’s much more rewarding having a discussion instead of a slanging match [and enjoyable], I’m always amazed at how many things other people know that I don’t, and on the odd occasion even gain a new perspective too, that never happen when the comment starts with, ‘you’re a d–khead’, so cheers.

          • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

            “Open desert warfare is the one place above all others that tanks would still be effective, providing they had adequate AA support of course, the combination of mobility, offensive power and range, and their durability, would all be assets in open desert warfare, though they’d still be vulnerable to attacks by faster light assault vehicles.”

            Fully agree, tanks needs space and room to be fully effective.

            Yes i have taken some “comments” about my tour, but hey, done is done and lesson learned.

            I enjoy having conversations with people that can construct a sentence without sounding like a modern reality show.
            And i never mind being educated in subjects that i lack knowledge in, so thank you.

            PS:
            Some of my posts in this conversation have been marked as spam, weird….

          • Arch Bungle

            Consider the effect of modern air power on tanks.

          • Brian Michael Bo Pedersen

            Modern airpower, if unchallenged, will eradicate armour.
            Thats why billions have/is being poured into mobile tactical air defence.

            Its a balance, with each side only having the advantage for a short period of time.
            Action vs reaction.
            Destroy vs protect.

  • GuyQ

    Obama’s plan B in Syria is to pay TURKEY to fight SYRIA. This is what is happening

  • Xoli Xoli

    Metal scraps.

  • Jakke1899

    Interesting in the RT video, in the background you can see those car-transport lorries laden with white Toyota pick-ups. Technicals for HTS?

  • Vitex

    Kebab cookers