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JUNE 2023

The Saker interviews Stephen Karganovic

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The Saker interviews Stephen Karganovic

Originally appeared at The Saker blog

The Saker: Please introduce yourself and your past and present political activities.

Karganovic: My name is Stephen Karganovic. My background is Serbian, Russian, and Polish. On my father’s side I have been able to trace family roots to the town of Khmelita, Smolensk district. In the first half of the 19th century Yuri Karganovich held the by then probably obsolete office of стольник (stolnik) in the regional town of Iskorosten. Perhaps because of my ethnically ecumenical background, I prefer to identify myself simply as an Orthodox Christian. I am a law school graduate, also with a degree in philosophy. I have never engaged in political activities as such. What interests me are issues with a moral dimension, and if they also happen to impinge upon politics, so be it.

The Saker: You are one of the best “Srebrenica specialists” out there. So, could you please in your own words describe, step by step, what actually took place in Srebrenica from the moment the Bosnian-Muslims raided the Serbian villages around Srebrenica to the moment the grand “genocide” strategic psy-op was launched.

Karganovic: I became interested in what happened in Srebrenica in July of 1995, during the Bosnian war, when in 2001 at the Hague I became involved in the defense of a Bosnian Serb officer accused of war crimes before the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia. I was in America, of course, while the war was going on and knew nothing of Srebrenica at that time. Neither did I have any axe to grind in the controversies that sparked that conflict. I was raised and educated in the United States, had a very vague concept of my ethnic background(s), and neither I nor my family had suffered any detriment at the hands of the other contending parties, so I had no motive to favor one side or disfavor another. As we sifted through the evidence in order to construct a defense, I noticed that the prosecution’s case consisted of broad allegations and was bereft of specific facts to support the grave charges laid against the defendant, which included genocide, an accusation that takes much highly technical evidence to prove. As I witnessed firsthand the unconventional legal procedures of the Hague Tribunal, which is a polite way of saying its complete alienation from the traditions of civilized jurisprudence, I became shocked. There did not seem to be much substance to the charge sheets. The remark once made by a hubristic US judge that “we can convict a ham sandwich,” which sounded flippant to me when I read it many years ago, ultimately received its full embodiment in the operation of the Hague Tribunal, and I had a ring-side seat to watch that professionally unedifying show.

I went on to work in several other defense teams at the Hague in cases that were not related to Srebrenica. But to make the long story short, I quickly realized that Srebrenica was the mainstay of the Hague Tribunal, or ICTY, and that officially confirming the “genocide” and “8,000 men and boys” version of the narrative was its principal mission. I was bothered to see defendants convicted to decades-long imprisonment on the most heinous of charges and flimsiest proof, and a nation tarred with the most serious crime under international law, based on improvised and fabricated “evidence” that would not stand up in any non-political domestic court. So, I began to pay special attention to Srebrenica and to use the resources available to me at the Hague Tribunal to collect all the data I could lay my hands on about what happened there.

In 2008 at the Hague, under the laws of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, I founded a non-government organization “Srebrenica Historical Project,” dedicated to a contextual, multi-disciplinary study of this issue. Our goal is to get to the bottom of what happened, and how and why. Our colleagues, whose research articles you can read on our website, are of diverse ethnic backgrounds and professional profiles. Almost none are Serbian. They have in common a critical approach and a desire to factually deconstruct what the late Prof. Edward Herman aptly called “the greatest triumph of propaganda at the close of the twentieth century.” He was referring to Srebrenica, of course.

Instead of my presenting a possibly subjective account of what happened in Srebrenica, I recommend visiting our website. Our many authors give, I think, persuasive and factual answers to most Srebrenica questions.

The Saker: What has the impact of Srebrenica been on the Serbian people and the Serbian state? Who has benefited most from this?

Karganovic: Srebrenica’s impact has been to bewilder the Serbian people, who are under the firm impression that they are victims, not perpetrators, of genocide. After bewilderment came indignant rejection of the Srebrenica smear. Western governments and the Soros organization have invested huge sums in Serbia into propping up a bevy of phony “NGOs” with the principal task of indoctrinating the public in the Srebrenica genocide guilt complex. Their efforts have been a dismal failure, notwithstanding the country’s demoralized state and the covert support of Serbia’s quisling governments. The goal, of course, is to further morally break down and emasculate the Serbian nation, to lay on them a paralyzing guilt trip and to render them submissive and obedient, apologizing and atoning forever for acts of moral turpitude that, unlike the Germans, they did not commit. So far, that particular “use of Srebrenica,” as Diana Johnstone would put it, has been a resounding flop.

But another, and very lethal, use of Srebrenica has been a huge success. The Srebrenica narrative is the foundation stone and chief rationale of the “right to protect” (R2P) doctrine of cynical, predatory imperialist interventions that have destroyed and devastated a dozen mostly Muslim countries and claimed several million innocent Muslim lives. R2P’s phony rationale is the supposed failure in July of 1995 of Western countries and NATO to act robustly to prevent the “Srebrenica genocide.” Srebrenica as a metaphor for unbridled imperialist aggression has indeed been a slaughterhouse for Muslims, but not in Bosnia in 1995.

The Saker: Can you outline what is currently happening in Serbia? We hear of a possible conflict with the US-backed Kosovo Albanians, of a possible EU and/or NATO membership? What is really taking place?

Karganovic: In response to your question about what is happening in Serbia (I am in America right now) I will quote from an email that I received today from a friend who teaches at a university abroad but is currently on holiday in Serbia: “There are heavy rains and floods here – Belgrade has been flooded twice – with torrents sweeping away cars as if they were mere toys. There is general chaos in the entire country, and everything is falling apart. But the gang in charge are celebrating themselves as saints and saviors, and there seems to be nothing of greater importance to Serbs than to put on the shackles of the European Union!”

That is admittedly a pessimistic assessment, but I believe it to be close to the truth. Slavic nations generally are not politically sophisticated and can easily be fooled and manipulated by savvy conmen. The Ukraine is a notorious example. Serbs are not far behind; they have the political acumen of seven-year-olds. I read somewhere that young Germans nowadays watch Hitler’s histrionics and wonder how their parents and grandparents could have been so simpleminded as to put their faith in that buffoon and accept his leadership. Future generations of Serbs will undoubtedly be reviewing the performance of the loathsome character who is running their country into the ground today and will wonder how their parents and grandparents could possibly have tolerated his obnoxious misrule.

As for the news of conflict with US-backed Albanians in Kosovo, on the part of the quisling regime there is neither the will nor the means to enter into such a confrontation. The regime was installed in order arrange for Serbia’s legal renunciation of Kosovo and its capos are well aware that reneging on that commitment will have for them most unpleasant consequences. As for actually opposing anything, Serbia no longer has an army worthy of the name, hence no means with which to effectively assert or defend its interests. It is at the mercy of foreign imperialists and their bought and blackmailed local agents. NATO membership seems definitely on the horizon because incorporation in today’s Axis is an essential component of the planned Ostfront war, as much today as it was in 1941.

The Saker: What about Montenegro? Has the Empire been successful in breaking off Montenegro from Serbia and is what is happening nowadays with Montenegro similar to what the Empire did in the Ukraine? I hear that an “independent Montenegrin Orthodox Church” is being prepared, is that true? How toxic/important is this development (assuming it is true)?

Karganovic: The only reason that Montenegro is not labeled “Europe’s last dictatorship,” but Byelorussia is, is that unlike Lukashenko its blackmailed dictator Djukanovic is a servile Western lapdog. With many criminal indictments in Italy waiting to be activated against him at the slightest hint of disobedience, for drug, cigarette, and human trafficking, he has no choice but to be one.

The similarities between the “nation-building” procedures in the Ukraine and Montenegro are striking. What this refers to is the artificial insemination of the target population with a phony, completely fabricated identity entirely at odds with their genuine history and culture, all to their detriment and in the service of their geopolitical manipulators’ and enemies’ agenda. We already know the Ukrainian story and need not repeat it here. The Montenegrin story is precisely analogous. Since subservient local chieftains receive memos telling them what they are expected to do, one may safely assume that in one of those memos delivered to Djukanovic he was instructed to initiate the setting up of a non-Serbian Montenegrin identity in order to fragment and undermine Serbian ethnic and cultural space even further. He obeyed.

The result today are regime-sponsored and condoned anti-Serbian excesses that closely compete with those of the Ukrainian looneys and often boggle the imagination. A recent example is an Instagram message by a certain Mirna Nikcevic, a counselor at the Montenegrin embassy in Ankara, where she wrote contemptuously of the crowd of Montenegrin Serbs that gathered around the cathedral of Christ the Savior in Podgorica to protest the regime’s plan to take over the temples of the canonical Orthodox church and hand them over to a schismatic pseudo church it had set up, that she would “cram the assembled cattle [meaning Montenegrins asserting their Serbian heritage – S. K.] into the church and set it on fire.” That most undiplomatic remark was mildly reproved by Djukanovic’s foreign ministry, but it accurately reflects the dementia of his partisans.

An “independent” Montenegrin church, as a fitting complement to the country’s statehood and alleged ethnic specificity, was in fact created a few years ago in a way that even the Ukrainian lunatics, who serve as the model for Djukanovic and his crew, would have difficulty topping. This “church” founded by atheists (which is what former Communist youth leader Djukanovic admittedly is) was set up as an NGO and registered as such in a Montenegrin police station. Recognizing the autocephaly of the Ukrainian pseudo-church was a piece of cake for the corrupt ecumenical patriarch in Constantinople compared to his forthcoming task of legitimizing the Montenegrin sect. He will have to figure out how to do it when he gets the memo from NATO that this is the next thing that is expected of him. (It is true that the ecumenical Patriarch informed Djukanovic a few days ago that Montenegro never had an autocephalous church and never will have one. But the fickleness of the Patriarchate is legendary. With a little pressure here, and some financial inducement there, the latter having worked miracles in the Ukrainian affair, a canonical rationale for a flip flop can surely be found.) Toxic is one word for the phenomenon of using Orthodox church institutions for the self-destruction of Orthodoxy. Ominous is another word for it and, as sheikh Imran Hosein would say, it is a reliable sign of akhir al-zamaan.

The Saker: Who won the Yugoslav civil war, if anybody? Here forget about Slovenia – please focus on Croatia and Bosnia.

Karganovic: The war was won, in a manner of speaking, by the globalist power centers which engineered the dissolution of the former Yugoslavia. They got what they wanted, feeble and dependent statelets run by their hired hands instead of a unified country with weight in world affairs, which at home did not even perform badly. The losers were all the citizens of the former Yugoslavia without exception, not only those who perished in senseless mayhem instigated by foreign agents and executed by domestic fools, but also the miserable survivors who must now live in the resulting neo-liberal hellholes.

The Saker: Are there any Serbs left in the former UN Protected Areas in what is Croatia nowadays and, if yes, how do they live?

Karganovic: Yes, there is a very small number of Serbs left in present-day Croatia, their share in the total population hovering around the 3% mark, drastically down from a quarter of the population before the slaughter in the Nazi-satellite “Independent State of Croatia” during World War II. They are mostly elderly, waiting to die hopefully natural deaths, if permitted by their Croatian fellow citizens.

The Saker: Are there any Serbs left in the Muslim-controlled areas of Bosnia today?

Karganovic: Yes, they are a whopping and largely disenfranchised 5% of the population of that section of the country. For purposes of comparison, in the capital of Sarajevo, where before the outbreak of the hostilities in 1992 there were about 150,000 Serbs, there are now only a few thousand left.

The Saker: How much autonomy does the Republika Srpska have today? Focus on this: are the Serbs in Bosnia safe or at they at risk?

Karganovic: The Republika Srpska, which is the Serb-run entity within Bosnia and Hercegovina under the Dayton Agreement signed to end the war in 1995, is continually struggling to preserve the autonomy guaranteed to it under international law. Above the local authorities, there is a “High Representative” of the “international community” who is really the official in charge in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He has arrogated to himself vast arbitrary powers to interpret laws, set up institutions, and dismiss democratically elected officials he deems unsuitable. It is a replication of the British colonial system. The Srebrenica genocide matter is being used as a pretext to dispute Republika Srpska’s legal and moral right to exist. No one is entirely safe in present-day Bosnia and Hercegovina.

The Saker: How do you see the future of Kosovo in general and of the Serbian minority in Kosovo specifically?

Karganovic: Until the results of NATO aggression in 1999 are annulled Kosovo will have no future, except as a narco and human organ trafficking pseudo state. Albanians are fleeing en masse the utterly incompetent and corrupt terror regime that was installed by NATO occupiers twenty years ago. The land is saturated with the depleted uranium munitions left over from the three-month NATO bombing campaign and is scarcely fit for human habitation. If you go to Kosovo, I would recommend you make your visit brief and bring your own canned food, avoiding contaminated local ingredients. Babies and animals are being born with hideous defects. Few people are aware of this, but Kosovo was targeted with the highest concentration of depleted uranium and other toxic substances during NATO’s 1999 “liberation war.” Being the majority of the population, Albanians are now paying a heavy price for NATO’s generous favors. Meanwhile, since Kosovo is a pot of gold in terms of its mineral and other resources, the chief liberators Wesley Clark and Madeleine Albright have made a financial killing by awarding themselves juicy business opportunities, while the “philanthropist” George Soros has his eye set on the enormously valuable Trepča mining complex. International corporations will get their choice pickings. Meanwhile, Albanians are dying of cancer and desperately moving out. There is a small remnant of Serbs still living in Kosovo which is spiritually and culturally their Holy Land. The future of that scene of ghastly crimes against humanity is in God’s hands.

The Saker: How many Serbs were displaced in total by the war and where do they reside nowadays?

Karganovic: Estimates are not reliable, but about a quarter of a million are thought to have been displaced from Croatia and as many from Kosovo. A further unknown number sought in Serbia safety from the war in Bosnia. We cannot be sure of the numbers, but we do have striking pictures which portray an exodus of biblical proportions.

The Saker: Are the Serbian refugees from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo a major factor in Serbian politics? If yes, how, if not, why?

Karganovic: They are not a factor at all. They are not allowed to interfere with the policies pursued by the Western-installed Serbian political elite.

The Saker: Do you think that the US and/or NATO have the stomach to use force against Serbia if the Serbs move to protect the Serbian minority in Kosovo?

Karganovic: It is a moot question because the hypothetical situation envisaged by the question is unlikely to occur.

The Saker: What happened to Bishop Artemie and why did the Serbian Orthodox Church yield to the Empire’s pressure and took away his diocese of Kosovo? How is he now and how can the readers find out more about him?

Karganovic: In essence, the American ambassador in Belgrade told the Serbian Patriarch that Bishop Artemie was an obstacle to “normalization” in Kosovo and that it was highly desirable for him to be removed. Within four days, Bishop Artemie was dismissed on trumped-up financial malfeasance charges which after a decade have not been proved in a court of law. His ouster seems to have been a blessing in disguise. He is now leading a thriving “diocese in exile,” where he is joined by most of his Kosovo clergy and monastics. Catacomb parishes, as he aptly calls them, of the exiled diocese are springing up all over Serbia and countries with a Serbian diaspora. The diocese that was contemptuously cast away by the servile, ecumenist leadership of the Serbian Church has now become its salt, providing much needed spiritual nourishment to Orthodox believers. It is living proof of God’s ability to confound the adversary’s most carefully laid plans and to transform them for the good.

The Saker: What should Russia do to help Serbia? What is, in your opinion, the “solution” to the Serbian drama in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo?

Karganovic: That is an overtly political question and as I said, I don’t do politics. I will just say that what Russia can and should do is to never abandon Serbia. That will at the same time be the solution to the drama that you mention. But none of that will be purely the work of human hands.

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Here we have a person who discovered that the Anglo Yanki cabal had no problem stitching up Serbs for committing crimes they never committed. And yet, he is prepared to claim without applying the same vigorous analysis that Germany did what the Serbs did not.Hmmmm……


The Germans committed crimes. But the extent to which the Jew holocaust occurred is questionable. And to the extent that it did. It’s blown way out of proportion when compared to all of the other mass murders and genocides of the 20th century. It’s almost certainly an overblown Zionist political scam.

Edvin R

International courts,domestic Bosnian courts and even Serbian courts have sentenced and continue sentencing people for the Srebrenica massacre and there are still idiots claiming there was none.Montenegro was historicaly a state before Serbia and longer then Serbia.Only time it was in the same state as Serbia was in Yugoslavia.To deny montenegrin 1000 years old national identity and religios autonomy by serbian nationalists is just ridicoulous and funny.


How did you find this article? I thought you ran out of lamp oil.

Saso Mange

People here like to swallow Serbian propaganda. Let em have it it’s nothing new on SF i mean they spread Serbian lies every now and then. This so called ”Srebrenica investigation” is nothing more but denial of large scale horrors committed by Serbian forces and state.


And the Croatians, Bosnians and Albanians didn’t? You still aren’t getting it. You are still letting your ancient prejudices get in the way of a happy life.

Edvin R

Dont see how other eventual crimes by any side can justify mass executions and genocide?


That’s the point, that Karganovic was making. Propaganda pushing lies and exaggerations gives people an excuse to do the same back.

Even here in Australia, our national broadcaster, the ABC ran a video on the alleged treatment of Croatian women by Serbs. An Australian female journalist spoke in front of a crowd of raped women behind a barred gate, of the terrible Serbian rape camps. All the while behind her the women were screaming out clearly in English that it was the Croats who were the perpetrators. The result – rape justified by all sides and another hundred boys left to join the war.

Saso Mange

98% of crimes against civilians were committed by Serbian forces. All documented. Not only Hague court but also Serbian courts, Croatian, Bosnian courts proved this. I would not be visiting SF nor would be supporting Russia on many issues if i was prejudiced like you say but i believe that SF is one of few sites that you visit.

Raptar Driver

98%, did you pull that figure out of your ass?

Saso Mange

From official documentation of courts. Mass graves like Tomasica and camps like Omarska alone have amounted to more than all crimes against Serbian civilians. I am talking about crimes against civilians, was Belgrade shelled? Was any Serbian town shelled in that war? GTFO

Raptar Driver

Proven already that it was a military operation and majority of bodies were combatants, the lie will not and has not stood the test of time, get a new job, propaganda only pays so much.


I see some commenters here still don’t get it. The whole Yugoslav war was the classic DIVIDE and CONQUER strategy used by the Romans and now by the US.

You had a functioning peaceful country that was respected around the world and where people lived together relatively happily and you blew it. You fell for the oldest trick in the military handbook.

You didn’t appreciate why your Yugoslav government was secular and multi-cultural. You allowed foreigners to divide you along religious, ethnic and historical grounds. One commenter even used the debate here to defend the Nazis who tried the same divide and conquer tactic in WW2. How many times do you have to fall for it. How many times before you begin to recognise that any one who comes bearing gifts of arms, money, ‘freedom and democracy’ is bearing a Trojan horse.

So how’s it going for you now?

Stephan Karganovic has worked hard to provide concrete evidence that the myths you hold dear to your hatreds are lies. And those lies enabled America and its goons to destroy the nation you once were.

Why do you think Ukraine is suffering now. Why do you think Nazism is rearing its ugly head again. It’s because you made it too easy. You were the proof that divide and conquer still works.

Edvin R

The only thing you seem to miss is that Karganovic only speaks about serbia and serbian.Yugoslavia as it once was,was created and ruled by a croat,Marshal Josip Broz Tito.Its those wanting a Serboslavia that destroyed it,not some outside forces.


Arms were being stored in Croatia 10 years before the war. Ustashi were training in Australia and America for years before the war. Muslims were being paid, trained and gained experience in the Middle East. Divisive propaganda such as the SANU Memorandum were spread widely containing false information designed to incite fear and hatred. (Reminds me of the Protocols of Zion and Nazi propaganda.)

All over Yugoslavia, religious and ethnic tensions were fanned into violent confrontations by the media. The US rejected calls from the UN and OSCE for a diplomatic solution and violent rebel groups such as the Kosovo Liberation Army started doing what US proxies have done in every country they wanted to control – false flag attacks on all conflicted sides.

The only country which so far hasn’t fallen into the divide and conquer trap is Venezuela.


Arms were not stored in Serbia because Serbia owned two thirds of the Yugoslav People’s Army, and Serbs thought they knew how to use it – it didn’t work out. Anyway, it’s amazing how the Saker and others refuse to see the inner contradictions of YU. Of course FUKUS a.o. took advantage of these contradictions to promote their NWO, as despicable it may be. But, though the Serbs are not the only responsible for the tragedy of YU, being 40% of the population, the strongest in the YU army, and controlling 50% of the YU Presidency plus 80% of the diplomatic service/foreign ministry they bear the main responsability. They had the means to avoid it, had they not been hypnotised by their dream of Greater Serbia, by the reestablishment of their mediaval “empire” (which was competing for the succession of the Byzantine empire). Ask Vuk Draskovic and his fellows of the Serbian Academy of Science.

Raptar Driver

It worked out fine until NATO intervention which happened in small increments.

Edvin R

Worked out fine for who? Nato bombings came 1999 when Yugoslavia was shattered in pieces.Croatian and Bosnian serbs decimated by then.Serbia on their knees because of sanctions.So worked out fine for who?

Raptar Driver

The Serbians of course were crushing all separatists on every front until American involvement. Who do think supplied the Croat and Muslim terrorists? Operation Storm was an American and German offensive, the Croat Nazi savages were trained, supplied and directed by the CIA and American/German military advisors. The Serbs would have stopped the outside instigated revolt by 94 if you pussies didn’t have your hands held by the American and German Fascists. Don’t be butt hurt by the facts pig.

Edvin R

Go and visit a psychiatrist dude,you mental.


Vuk Draskovic and his fellows of the Serbian Academy of Science wrote the SANU Memorandum. However Serbia didn’t start the war. Slovenia did.

Have you ever wondered what the “odious debt” is that Slovenia owes Israel and the United States? https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/david-cronin/why-slovenia-must-repudiate-its-debt-israel

Or why “The U.S. had maintained an official presence in Slovenia since the early 1970s, when the United States Information Agency (USIS) opened a library and American press and cultural center in Ljubljana. The American Center worked to develop closer grassroots relations between the United States and the people of the then-Socialist Republic of Slovenia, a constituent republic of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.”


Interesting. Still, had the YU poeple loved or at least respected eachother, they would have kicked them out. On the other hand I agree that without interference they might have managed to reach an agreement…


It’s little known that during 1970’s Croatian nationalist extremists engaged in multiple terrorist bombings in Australia – against Yugoslav state representatives and Yugoslav consulate in Sydney, all this was deemed significant domestic terrorist threat by Australian security agencies at time. Likewise, it’s little known that during late 1970’s West German intelligence services actively sought contact with Croatian nationalists and state agencies, and advised them to purge ethnic Serbs from the Croatian state services, to prepare for greater West German and Croatian cooperation toward Croatian nationalist goals. It was not without reason, that when Croatia unilaterally seceded from Yugoslavia in 1991, it was refereed to in western media as the (now unified) German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher’s own war. As Germany had rushed to unconditionally and unilaterally recognize both Slovenian and Croatian independence – in direct contradiction to prior negotiated policies with EC partners – Germany openly disregarded EC agreements to only recognize the two states as independent under EC conditionality requirements. Since 1970’s West Germany, and then unified Germany, sought to resume its sphere of influence over Slovenia and Croatia – and acted to undermine Yugoslav unity accordingly – particularly via Croatian extreme nationalists.


All is known about the “Croation Spring” of 1974 and the following prison sentence for Franjo Tudjman. The Croatian fascist tradtion is nothing new, but what about the Serbian tradition of collaboration with Nazis? See the German instated Serbian “Militärbefehlshaber” of 1941, Milan Nedic.


Thanks Bob. They finally got ASIO’s attention away from harassing our peaceful communists.

A very dear friend of my fathers (Romanian Croatian) warned the police and ASIO that the Ustashi was training in North Qld. They gave him a hand gun for protection. When a Croatian told them he was a Communist they took it away. Bastards.


Raptar Driver

“Slavic nations generally are not politically sophisticated and can easily be fooled and manipulated by savvy conmen. The Ukraine is a notorious example. Serbs are not far behind; they have the political acumen of seven-year-olds.”

That’s how the trick worked.


Serbians and Albanians seem closer than one might assume….

Raptar Driver

All Balkan peoples have things in common but there is a noticeable gulf between Shqiptars and Slavs in many respects.


Talking about humankind…

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