0 $
2,500 $
5,000 $
2,702 $
SOUTHFRONT'S MONTHLY BUDGET

The Coming US-China Proxy War In Venezuela

Donate

Originally appeared at ZeroHedge

China won’t give up on embattled Venezuelan president Nicolas Maduro anytime soon even as the US-led international noose of “delegitimizing” hangs around the socialist strongman, according to government statements released on Friday. Beijing reaffirmed it maintains “normal state-to-state relations” and cooperation between the two sides “shouldn’t be undermined no matter how the situation evolves,” according to press briefing by the Chinese Foreign Ministry. Or rather, we could more simply translate: with billions of dollars in credit on the line, “non-interference” is simply not an option for China.

The Coming US-China Proxy War In Venezuela

Image via CNN Chile

“China has maintained close communication with all parties through different ways,” a ministry spokesperson said in response to question about whether China has had contact with National Assembly leader Juan Guaido. “We are ready to work with all parties to promote peace talks, and create favorable conditions for the proper settlement of the Venezuelan issue,” the ministry added.

But then there’s the not so minor issue of China over the past decade lending over $50 billion to Caracas as part of an oil-for-loan agreements program. It underscores just how quickly what appears a new White House full court press for regime change could bring Washington again into indirect conflict with both China and Russia. And in total Venezuela owes “more than $120 billion just to China and Russia” FOX reported this week.

A new Wall Street Journal report outlines what’s at stake, and the mounting costs for Beijing:

When China hatched the first of a series of oil-for-loans agreements with Venezuela in 2007, it seemed like a perfect match. Venezuela had the world’s biggest oil reserves; China was poised to become the biggest energy consumer.

Twelve years and more than $50 billion in loans later, a political crisis in Venezuela is threatening China’s payout and drawing Beijing into a proxy standoff as it supports a Venezuelan leader the U.S. is intent on toppling. It is a conflict with Washington that Beijing could do without, amid efforts to resolve a trade dispute that is weighing on the Chinese economy.

And what remains of that loan which could potentially disappear with the stroke of an anti-Maduro coup?

According to estimates by China’s Commerce Ministry, Venezuela still owes around $20 billion, the WSJ reports.

The Coming US-China Proxy War In Venezuela

Source: WSJ

Both China and Russia further remain the Latin American country’s biggest arms suppliers and Beijing had an additional $3.2 in direct investments in Venezuela in 2017, not to mention at least three joint ventures between between China National Petroleum Corp and Venezuela’s now US-sanctioned state oil company, Petróleos de Venezuela SA, or PdVSA.

Though Venezuelan repayments to China reportedly began slowing to a “trickle” by 2015, current political unrest and Washington’s regime change efforts could prove devastating for Chinese investment:

China’s investments are now at risk under Mr. Maduro—and Beijing also recognizes that a U.S.-backed Guaidó administration might refuse to honor outstanding debts.

China’s Commerce Ministry spelled out this concern on Tuesday. “If the opposition party holds power in the future, a new Venezuelan government could use ‘protecting national interests’ as a reason to renegotiate contract terms with China and even just refuse to repay remaining debts,” the ministry said in its latest investment guidance report on Venezuela.

Given that Beijing is all to aware of the outcome to any Venezuelan transition of power, and given it remains the Maduro regime’s top weapons supplier, there’s no telling what kind of possible clandestine military-to-military cooperation or contingency plans are already in effect.

Similar to China’s quiet military support to Syria’s Assad throughout the past years of international proxy war in the Levant, which has gone increasingly public , China could be gearing up to support Maduro in a more direct capacity.

The Coming US-China Proxy War In Venezuela

“Cold War style map” presented at Monday White House press briefing: the map was aimed at showing the countries that support Venezuela’s socialist President Nicolas Maduro (in red), and those countries that do not (in blue). via Bloomberg

“Russia and China are using Venezuela as a proxy conflict to challenge the U.S. This is more than just economic support. Russia and China are leveraging its economic support to establish a military-industrial presence in Venezuela,” Joseph Humire, executive director of the Center for a Secure Free Society, told Fox News this week.

For starters, China has a satellite tracking facility at the Capitán Manuel Rios Air Base in Guárico, while Russia has a cyberpresence at the Naval Base Antonio Diaz “Bandi” in La Orchilla, an island north of Caracas.

“This adds space and cyberspace capabilities that the Maduro regime does not have,” Humire pointed out. “For Russia and China, pressuring the U.S. via Venezuela adds leverage to their regional ambitions in Ukraine and Eastern/Central Europe (for Russia) and Taiwan and South China Sea (for China).” FOX News

All of this suggests amidst what some analysts have dubbed “a new Cold War” scenario that another Cuban Missile Crisis in America’s backyard could be around the corner.

This is all the more likely considering the Trump White House may not be accurately assessing China and Russia’s resolve to stick by Maduro and his still loyal military. Yet unlike in Syria where Russian intervention at the invitation of Damascus in 2015 thwarted the US-Gulf-NATO drive for regime change, Washington has geography working clearly in its favor in the case of Venezuela.

Donate

SouthFront

Do you like this content? Consider helping us!

  • Neil

    US regime have been humiliated a few times recently, unable to overthrow the governments in Syria, Iran, Russia. Bolton was sure he would celebrate last Xmas in Tehran with MEK. It would be a major humiliation if they couldn’t overthrow Maduro right there on their doorstep. If the result is Russian and Chinese military bases in Venezuela, that would be hilarious.

    • Barba_Papa

      Except Maduro is no Assad, who managed to hang on, shrewdly presenting him as the least worst alternative. Which was easy considering the alternatives to him were ISIS and ISIS Light (Al-Qaida). Maduro is just a bully who runs the economy into the ground, because Socialism doesn’t work, never worked and will never work. Guaido in contrast may be a return to the days before Chavez took over, when the wealth was poorly spread, but at least it wasn’t as bad for most Venezuelans as it is now. So Maduro cannot present himself as the least worst alternative, as he IS the worst alternative. So everything depends on him being able to buy the loyalty of the generals. And hope that China and Russia might be able to prop him up. But as the article said, geography favors Washington here, just like it favored Moscow in the case of the Ukraine.

      By continuing to support Maduro China and Russia may be making things worse for themselves. The Maduro regime is not stable, as economically it cannot sustain itself. If anything since the days of Chaves Venezuela has been declining steadily. At some point, even without US meddling this regime will collapse, and then there will be fallout against those who helped to prop it up for so long. By seeking to secure their loans and investments they may ultimately end losing them for sure.

      • Neil

        Maduro must have failed to run the economy; they have 1,000,000% inflation. That can’t all be blamed on US sanctions. Would Guaido be better for the people? I don’t know.
        Socialism never works, you say. That is the US propaganda mantra for Venezuela. It’s not true; most successful nations have some socialism, in the form of welfare and nationalised industry, and also some capitalism.
        Yes, the geography favours US over Russia and China in this case. I agree with your last paragraph. We will see how it plays out.

        • You can call me Al

          He failed due to the arduous US sanctions that have been going on 6/7 years – I 100% agree with you on the rest.

          • Barba_Papa

            Chavism has been at it for far longer. Maduro has only been in power since those 6/7 years. Before the country’s economy was also failing, you can’t play social justice Santa Claus while you run the economy into the ground. And Hugo Chavez very much did so as well.

          • FlorianGeyer

            200 ethnic super rich Spanish families sucked the wealth out of Venezuela since the genocidal colonisation by Spain.

            The ethnic Venezuelans were mostly treated like slaves.

            Chavez stopped that and now the Spanish Venezuelans , who are still largely wealthy and well fed ( just a look at the anti Maduro demonstrations shows this) want more again.

          • Bill Wilson

            Venezuela’s economy was doing good and growing until the toad Chavez took over the government. He squandered the country’s wealth on freebies for the “oppressed peons” to win their loyalty while he and his cronies pocketed their ‘fair share” while rolling nothing back into maintenance of the country’s oil infrastructure. Maduro was a trusted toady that was made temporary president while Chavez recovered from illness. He died, leaving the fool Maduro in charge that wasted no time in screwing things up even more by placing military and government officials in charge of the oil fields and refineries that didn’t know jack about their operations nor business management. Oil production bagan to drop under Chavez and has plummeted under Maduro’s administration. During that time Maduro kept the peasants happy with dirt cheap subsidized food and vehicle fuels whose actual costs far exceeded what they paid for them. All that good stuff became scarce when the government started running short on oil to sell to raise the cash to import the goods and repair the broken down refineries and oil pumping stations. Three million residents have the left the country to avoid starvation and the enlisted ranks have become very unhappy with being fed small amounts of pasta twice a day for the past year instead of their usual rations. Their soldiers won’t do anything if invaded by anyone since their vehicles can’t get refueled due to Maduro allowing the sale of the military’s fuel reserves to the civilians when the service stations ran out of fuel. The stations are still out of fuel because the tanker trucks are stuck parked at the refineries with empty fuel tanks because the refineries are barely producing any fuels. China offered to repair those but only if their people were put in charge of their operation and brought in Chinese techs and crews to ensure that things got done. maduro’s crooked cronies objected to that so nothing changed. Now the little fatso wants to remove Venezuela’s gold reserves from the country “for safekeeping”!

          • Bill Wilson

            What US sanctions? US and foreign companies have stopped doing business with Venezuela due to Maduro’s interference with Venezuela’s banking system that made it impossible for them to keep their operations running there to export products and import needed materials and supplies. US automakers and heavy equipment manufacturers had assembly plants in Venezuela that were closed down due to that, which threw people out of work. The US still buys Venezuela’s very heavy sour crude and sells Venezuela the naphtha that the crude is diluted with so they can pump the shit into the tankers, along with the finished petroleum products such as fuels and lubricating oils that Venezuela’s refineries can’t produce anymore due to their broken down condition brought on by their government’s neglect.

        • Barba_Papa

          You are talking about social democracy, which seeks to lessen the excesses of capitalism and improve the lives of the common man. Which has about as little in common with socialism as patriotism does to fascism or nazism. Socialism, as preached for in marxism, didn’t work, doesn’t work and never will work. And anyone who claims no true version of socialism has been tried is basically saying ‘Give me absolute power and I will prove that I will that completely enlightened, totally altruistic and totally be trusted dictator who will usher in utopia’. Trust people like that at your own peril.

          • Neil

            Marxism prohibits private enterprise, even private property. These things aren’t banned in Venezuela.

          • vladput

            bullshit

          • Neil

            What part of my comment do you disagree with?

          • vladput

            i grown up in socialism. pthe private property was always allowed

          • Neil

            Where was that?
            Could you own a house? or land?

          • vladput

            of course, we had private proparty. own house, own land. the size of land was limited. but in poland for example there were also big farmers. in hungary, too.

            everything was allowed, what we were able do within family. forbidden were such forms of economical activities, where employed people were needed.

          • Neil

            So there was restriction of enterprise and property. That’s a bit of Marxist thing. Could you sell your house and buy another one, where you wanted?

            I was just saying Venezuela isn’t all that restrictively Marxist. Cuba is much more restrictive with property, for example. That’s not bullshit.

          • vladput

            of course, we could sell or buy the houses, properties.

            i agree with this:

            I was just saying Venezuela isn’t all that restrictively Marxist. Cuba
            is much more restrictive with property, for example. That’s not
            bullshit.

      • Tudor Miron

        “at least it wasn’t as bad for most Venezuelans as it is now.”(c) – This is a blatant lie.

        • Barba_Papa

          Uh, no? The country experiences hyper inflation, the shops are empty, private property is not being respected, 3 million have fled the country, its mineral wealth is being plundered by armed gangs with the backing of powerful members of the elite *cough* the army *cough*, and the average Venezuelan has lost 17 pounds in weight since the advent of Chavism. This stuff doesn’t work, and just because Venezuela stands up to the US does not make it Paradise on Earth. How many times do I have to say, the enemy of my enemy is NOT my friend, just my enemy’s enemy. Nothing more, nothing less.

          • Tudor Miron

            Why don’t you honestly describe what was going on before Chaves. “average Venezuelan has lost 17 pounds in weight since the advent of Chavism. “(c) Didn’t know you started working as retranslator of MSM lies.

          • Jens Holm

            As I see it, Chavez only was elected, because things already was very bad. Feudals and more criminals then that did not try to devellop anything exept narcotyics, human traficcing and like that.

            Thats how I saw it.

          • IMHO

            Yea and the U.S. is going to be sure that Venezuela’s mineral wealth is plundered by U.S. oil companies.

          • Tommy Jensen

            You need to add that US sanctions and sabotage caused the chaos and demise.

            Chavez was respected all over Latin America for his strong fight for the Venezuelan people using the oil like Gaddafi to improve the life of the poor majority.
            In West Chavez was smeared 24/7 in MSM.

            On this basis its difficult to see whether Maduro is a nutcase or he just got undermined by much stronger forces from US.

          • occupybacon

            1/3 of Venezuela exports go in USA. With all the sanctions USA helps Venezuela more than China and Russia together.

          • Dušan Mirić

            It’s trade not help.

          • occupybacon

            Yeah, a country can survive without “help” but can’t survive without trade. So USA helps Venezuelans to survive more than Russia and China combined.

          • Dušan Mirić

            I don’t think Venezuelans need anybody to survive. If it is not the USA it would be someone else. The USA are not trading with Venezuela because of altruistic reasons.

          • occupybacon

            First: If that is so simple as choosing “someone else” for you why Venezuela just don’t totally replace USA with China or Russia or anyone else in trade?

          • Dušan Mirić

            I can only speculate about the reasons, ordinary human reasons.

          • occupybacon

            Ok, speculate a bit, don’t be shy.

          • Dušan Mirić

            Well, let’s say relatives based trade like Turkish shops in Germany for Turks living there.

          • occupybacon

            You forgot one detail: they don’t have food in their own country. What could send abroad? I can give you a small hint: 91% of export is oil.

          • Dušan Mirić

            I don’t know. i can tell you a story from my hometown which was surrounded with Croats and Serbs populated villages. It was approximately 50/50 while the countryside was 70/30 in favor of Croats. As the hostilities ended in the beginning of 1992 trade starts. Serbs were in need for fuel and Croats for food, so trucks with flour from Serbia were coming, Croats were taking diesel fuel… Yesterday I heard Mr Maduro’s interview and learned something more about Venezuela. more than a million Colombians are living in Venezuela (RT in Spanish)… it is huge potential. So, what they can send abroad knows people on the ground and they are probably doing it.

          • occupybacon

            If you don’t know the info is up on google, better say “I don’t care, I believe what makes me feel good”. You can also learn from “Mr Maduro” how Chavez appeared to him as a bird. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFTApZVmOYI

          • Dušan Mirić

            Does it harms anybody?

          • occupybacon

            Yes, to have a retarded president harms an entire nation.

          • Dušan Mirić

            Wow!
            I was never fond of individuals like Castro… or Maduro. There’s too much Latin temper for me… I was avoiding to even listen and watch. But, it is their house, and as much as I know, despite some people dislike him, there are more those people who like him. Democracy?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-3hcCe8Rdk

          • occupybacon

            Not even 20 seconds from the video and the commie scum lashes out at the private businesses inside the country, what a great view about a country’s economy, pulled out directly from the fat butt of a bus driver like Maduro.

          • Dušan Mirić

            Oh, sa te strane vjetar puše. (Croatian proverb)

          • Dušan Mirić
          • occupybacon

            I assure you that everybody knows The REAL Reason The U.S. wants to change Maduro. But also I assure you Venezuelans will have a better life doing business with the US and EU rather than with China and Russia.

          • Dušan Mirić

            If Venezuelans share your opinion I’ll support it.

          • FlorianGeyer

            China and Russia could use all the Venezuelan exports I would think, including the oil.

          • vladput

            could, but will not. they will not give money for good, they do not need. russia i spoor, never helped anybody. look at cuba, greece, cyprus, vietnam, etc.

          • occupybacon

            They could have done that til now if that was possible.

          • FlorianGeyer

            Both Russia and China have done so and I am sure will be ramping up the support . Rather like we have seen in Syria.

          • Redsky B

            We have millions of Americans who’d love to lose 17 lbs. Just look at the obesity crises here . . is this something America should be proud of and want to protect ?
            We also have tons of empty shops and let’s not forget the mass numbers of suicides of our veterans and active duty military personnel. And throw in the opioid crises causing mass deaths here and elsewhere. It ain’t a crises it’s murder. The list goes on and on including many Americans moving to other countries. Are you someone who just likes to see the weak get beat up by the bully ?

          • Justin

            “We have millions of Americans who’d love to lose 17 lbs. Just look at the obesity crises here”
            lol, u so right! In fact its a western problem too!
            Australia has a lot of fat people now too!!! Very sad!

          • Jens Holm

            I dont see that at all. Your problems are different, if You are an american. You do have a high production and almost none unimploymented.

            If You try to relate Your problems is, who gets the cake. Because Your cake is there.

            And some few even has seen there are possibilities for change like Old Sanders – and in an american context, where You have to change some of Your own OMENS.

            It was possible for Obama co Sanders to make many see it and copy.

            He compared with Denmark. We have a better hospital and medical care system them Your even Yours cost 60% more and cower those with no money much lower then us.

            Thats a lot of money putting 60% i billkions extra in private pockets. You have to learn to trust Your state. We let the state take the top of running those expensive sectors – and THEN WE OUTSOURCE.

            By that we control profit, so our customers dont get plundered in all levels.

            We also see education more capitalistic then You. We invest in children by free education and by paying people partly for taking an education. By that we get more very good taxpayers even we waste a lot of money as well.

            Another good thing for free education is, You as Young is not depended by Your family. Those are not You and even can decide, if they think You should be in an office or be a caprpenter. Do they decide who to marry as well ???

            By that we educate all after their a,b,c and after skills and hard work. Does that sound familiar.

            So dont tell me anyone in USA should and would leave. Tax is no issue here. Our standard pensions are much better. Tax is no issue, because we are paid back when we need it and we dont have so many insurreces. We have more days for vacations and our paying for extra pension follow us being added even >You change job to something different.

            So You and others should stay in USA to the better in stead of leaving. You could make them, You certainly need reforms here and there and not only in Venezuela.

          • R PLobo

            Same old idiot propaganda talk about the shops being empty and the people cannot get their blue jeans. Is it Russia 1991?

          • Justin

            its getting close! But it wont go there until the whole world sanctions them! That wont happen because they have competing interests!

            i can see a blockade occurring tho!

            This is so close to US home, i cant see China winning this! But i think China will apply pressure to Taiwan and Russia to ukraine!

            There are some disadvantages to China and Russia!

            Russia has to compete with NATO and Ukraine shares a land border with many countries!

            China has the biggest problem! Taiwan is an island! a BIG island that can defend itself for a long time!

            USA can literally block the panama canal very easily! Can block the Gulf of mexico easily! They can use Colombian military (with no cost to the USA in lives) to infiltrate Venezuela! USA has many friendly islands in the area and already has maybe half the population supporting the pro western candidate!

            USA wins this one!

            China loses Taiwan. No way they getting that island! even if they start a world war!
            Russia can easily take Ukraine but at a cost to Russia in lives and in economic sanctions and closer relations to Europe!

            Deciding factors will be Europe and middle east! Who Saudi sells oil too and who they cut off (for america) and what Happens in Europe with BREXIT etc etc!

            i honestly believe that Russia will ally with the USA after the 2020 elections (if trump wins)! people think thats crazy but i honestly believe this with some research!

          • vladput

            You are right, bro! Most of Venezuelan people are not behind Maduro. This showed also the last election.

          • Justin

            Wow…. finally someone with some intelligence around here!
            Thank you for ur great words!

            For so long i have been on this site and all i see is 100% bias!
            People have a one track mind on this site! Finally someone speaks with an open mind!

            People forget that there is no such thing as allies, only common interests! china is NOT our friend!
            Russia is doing good in Syria but its for its own interests!
            USA has done bad in the middle east but again, it was for its own selfish interests!

            What peole dont understand that the REAL bad people of this world USED the USA as a hammer against many nails while they were setting up their dream nation (China) to be the Globalist, Communist, Dictator, digital distopian, empire of the world! Sucking the Western world dry of its commercial industries to prop up their empire of zionist globalism!

            There has never been a “GOOD” empire only bad empires ! But the best of the bad empires has been the USA (by far)!

            Look at Japan, look at South Korea, Look at west Germany, look at Hong Kong (UK controlled) look at Taiwan!
            Now lets compare them to East Germany, Eastern Europe, Western China (1million muslims in jail), China pre -2000, North Korea!

            The USA has been the BEST empire ever (yet all empires are inherently bad)!

            Japan literally attacked the USA without declaration and they were defeated and allowed to become a super economic power! Same with Germany!

            People on this site are so ignorant! They forget the Soviet union, Mao, Stalin, etc etc!

            Yes the USA will steal your oil but they will also develop your country!

            this website forum has become a race to hating everything non Syria, China, Iran and Russia! Nobody dares too open their minds a little more!

          • Barba_Papa

            Yeah, well, alternative news sites do draw in the crazies and anti-semites. It reminds me off that Facebook episode of Southpark, where Cartman advises Kyle that if he wants more online friends he has to wade through endless amounts of guys jerking off. And alternative news sites have just as much of an agenda as MSN ones.

            As for your post, I’ve twice written and removed a lengthy reply as I just can’t seem to find the right words. I think that yes, you are right, as far as evil empires go, we could have gotten a lot worse. But I also think that only applies to what we call ‘The West’. If you don’t live in ‘The West’ chances are your experiences with the American Empire are far less favorable. As I’m sure that invasion or having your democratically elected government overthrown by some US backed ‘El Presidente for Life’ is far less favorable.

            Maybe my view on the American Empire is like Charles de Gaulle’s view on Germany. He said he loved Germany so much, that he liked it even more that there were two Germany’s. Maybe I like empires so much that I want there to be a lot more of them, not just the American Empire. But an American empire that is balanced by others, not one that can do the fuck whatever it wants. The US, the EU, Russia, China, Iran, India, Brazil perhaps? All perfectly balanced against one another and one that Europe can play against each other, rather than be a vassal of one.

          • Justin

            Wait a second!

            ok ill be honest with u! i only read the first 2 lines u wrote to me and i had to reply! This isnt fake! its on video! George Soros actually says this at DAVOS Switzerland during the world economic forum 2019!

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXGxShCv3nw

            Let me quote what else he says :

            “Social media giants like FaceBook need to be reigned in for the sake of democracy”!

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIWYZnrdDkM

            Do u understand what i am saying now??

            Soros has been COMPROMISED!!!

            u will understand what i mean soon!

            Wait for big news coming out of the USA around Feb 15!

            Remember this date!!!

            Ask urself….. why did Soros say this? What made him do this? He was ALWAYS pro China!!

          • Justin

            i read ur reply in full now! U made an interesting reply! I like ur style! Finally a smart guy on this Forum! Not many here!

          • Tommy Jensen

            You have a point worth considering.

        • vladput

          FSB agent, do not lie here!

      • matt

        Social policies, within the international capitalist system work, just look at Bolivia and Brasil. Millions got out of extreme poverty, something that never happens with neo liberalism, just give me one example!!

      • al quaida

        “Maduro is just a bully who runs the economy into the ground”

        Why are you repeating pro regime change propaganda? You been hacked?

        • Joe Stevens

          The troll is probably a CIA tool typing from an office in Langley.

        • Bill Wilson

          Chavez ran it into the ground. Maduro buried it.

      • Don’t believe the propaganda against Maduro by Washington which is already looking for buyers of Venezuela’s assets. Instead listen to what real Venezuelans are saying about their former bus driver who became president. Note the introduction by Al Jazeera contains some factual errors and omissions. https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2017/05/venezuela-support-nicolas-maduro-170528160033611.html

        • Bill Wilson

          Maduro is an accidental president. He was a loyal Chavez stooge that was made temporary president while Chavez recovered from an illness. He died mysteriously and Maduro made sure that he remained in power using the help of others that Chavez kept at arm’s length.

          • You forget he was elected in a fairer system than that of America. It’s a double system – electronic and ballot box.

            Polling places are equipped with multiple touch-screen DRE voting machines. After the vote is cast, each machine prints out a paper ballot, or VVPAT, which is inspected by the voter and deposited in a ballot box. The voting machines perform in a stand-alone fashion, disconnected from any network until the polls close.

            Voters register fingerprints and identity card details onto the Electoral Register, and these are verified during the voting process. Voters sign a register to confirm that they have voted, and have a finger marked with election ink.

            That’s a damn sight fairer than Guaido who declared himself president without an election at all. The only other person I can think of that did that was Hitler.

          • Tommy Jensen

            I suspect Maduro to be another Lech Walesa. With all respect, a welder and a bus driver dont have the skills to handle sophisticated foreign attacks on finances.

      • Potato Potato

        I agree with you. I think Maduros government will fall sooner or later, whether US in intervenes or not UNLESS he does economic reforms to improve the economy.

      • Jens Holm

        Drastic changes are needed. There is no Leadership for it. I dont trust USA doing something there.

        The only big enough I see, Maduro dont like at all. EU actually are experienced in have countries in more or less administration and they could make Shell and BP take over oil and relaticly fast make a modern oilproduction incl logistiscs.

        Probatly a bad idea, but its the only one I have. Those of mine also know about human rights, so they at least has a feeling about whats wrong and right.

        I cant see Russia and China devellop anything there. They just dont understand how Venezuala became a country asnd has been ever since.

        But those might give a hand for limited production like learning Venezuelans to feed themselves eating the food themselves in stead of export. Thats no socialism, but some Maduros might “eat” that. It should not be allowed so many are kept poor – and now even worse close like a collapse.

        Maybee I am far out in this.

      • Paul

        I think there needs to be a balance between socialism and capitalism (economically) in all countries. Complete privatisation of Government assests only creates a huge divide between rich and poor as we see in the US, but nationalising everything doesn’t work either. I think you do need to take into consideration the multi national companies that Chavez pissed off. They weren’t just going to walk away. Venezuela has been economically crippled by the West, but I do agree that it also been poorly managed.

        • Jens Holm

          Something like that. Socialism is a result of bad capitalisme. None of those should stand alone. Funny in Denmark:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Bqx3iXFdM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lut2NEZa0Hc

          • Paul

            Yep. Free healthcare and education using taxpayers money is evil communism!

          • Jens Holm

            Not here. We are not socialist and even as we were, we do produce a lot even have plus to USA selling them more, then they do to us.

            https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c4099.html :)

          • occupybacon

            Yes Jens, but that because of the protectionist politics of EU that started by not importing GMOs from the US then making their own GMOs and continuing with taxing pouting cars but then making their own pouting cars so on.

          • Jens Holm

            We are very sceptic about genetic modificated things. That has nothing to do with USA at all.

            And we dont tax USA cars more or less then others. Unfortunatly USA after my private opinion has not reformed several sectors of Your productions.

            You should not blame us for steal as well but improve a lot showing You are innovative.

            Its like Old Sanders says. He says take the good parts of the scandinavian models. True – We are much better in several sectors then You are. MUCH. MUCH BETTER.

            Then we are not as in all sectors, but You can take from other countries – chinese, russians and all other does. Most of that is not secrets unless You call everything outside USA for communisme.

            About strructures for Your state we fx all get a letter where and when to vote. Its a stupidity not letting alle vote. It even written in Your constitution.

            So when we we arrive to the place, where we vote, we ID us and get lists and then vote.

            We also here find iot totally stupid, that You calculators on TVs can see how many votes Your president candidates get – but those are not facts in DC.

            And electing President candidates is same thing. Its totally strange to see. If we were as big as You, we as several other contries would elect among the already elected in the Senat or in the Congress.

            Then we would know them already and what they are for things insiode and outside USA and have owned respect.

            Thats an example of many.

            And yes we have free education, You can be a doctor, a lawyer or and ingenier. So whats has it to do with GMO. Well even farmers know, that You have to feed the cows well to get meat and milk. That is seen as an investment added to hartd work.

            But why dont You edud´cate in the same way. We have good results in cost benefits for that by tax. True we have many loosers but we have more educated in % then You. But thé main thing is, we get more in by tax then we spend because the educated ones at least goes into the middle class.

            Here its also very strange, that parents are payers for uducation and so many times decide, what their children shall be or can deny them that. How can that be, when You in some states can make 8 years old respinsible and put them in jail.

            And in that we see Your healt care is not under any sober control. We have the control by our state(5,75 mio), which then outsource a lot of it as well as buy medicals. So we dont have profit and our systems are much more effective for ALL.

            By those things we also reduce the contrasts, so we not are like You partly are in social economic matters as well as in elepthants and goats.

            You could try to do that in state level having 52 of them and not trusting Washington DC.

          • occupybacon

            Y do you keep saying “Your”? I’m not American.

          • Tommy Jensen

            This Danish Politician has been involved in so many scandals; secret surveillance of journalist who criticised the Socialists State Railways where you pay double to get the half, duffer laws where you get State funding for keeping your cows inside in the summer, m.m.

            The Socialist´s work in Denmark:
            The worlds highest prices on drinking water “for the weak, poor, elderly, refugees”.
            The worlds highest prices on electricity “for the weak, poor, elderly, refugees”.
            The worlds highest prices on heating “for the weak, poor, elderly, refugees”.
            The public school 20% cant calculate 8×7, write a letter correct after 9 yrs/35hrs, but have psychologists perm. employed for “cognitive disorder” diagnoses.
            The State Railways/Metro cost $7 for a 15km city ride in a spaghetti ticket system “to save the nature”.
            Denmark has the worlds highest cancer rate with “Clean City, Green City” medals.
            Europe record in burglary, Danish Police are only due for ATC and other billing.

            Sick leave payment, pension schemes, more refugees rights, gay marriages, woman quotes, green clima sustainable “something” and an Forced removal of Children industry, are their headlines and profit schemes.

            As Trump says: The democrats/socialists are only good for: too high taxes, too much criminality, and too much obstruction.

        • Barba_Papa

          The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Do good intentions make the Hell that follows any less? You can argue about how big corporations operate, but if you confiscate their holdings they’re obviously not going to like it and cooperate with you in the future. And the guys you put in charge have to be more then good, because they now have to lead a business that no longer enjoys any fiscal or logistical support from its mother company. And all to often the guys put in charge are ideological cronies, or just plain cronies, so they run these nationalized companies into the ground. Net result, everybody is worse off.

          Socialism (as in Marxists, not social democrats) doesn’t work, never worked and will never work. After the horrors of WWII we said never again with fascism and nazism, yet the radical leftist loonies still get a free pass to this day, and that’s why they are far more dangerous then a bunch of neo-nazi skinheads.

          You are obviously right in that there needs to be a balance between free enterprise and the public good. The public good is never served by powerful corporations dominating governments, monopolies and poor working conditions. On the flip side a government that is too stifling in its controls on free enterprise is just as bad. Finding the right balance has always been problematic, and one that social democrats have always tried to find. Or at least they should. The two biggest problems for social democrats have always come from infiltration by the loony left and cooptation by big business. And unfortunately in this day and age these threats come simultaneously. Which is why social democracy is doing so poorly in Europe today, and populism is doing so well.

          • Paul

            Well said. One of the biggest problems in the West is that the politicians who are supposed to represent the people, actually represent the rich and their massive companies. The fact is the rich don’t pay tax and companies have loopholes that the politicians set up so they don’t have to pay tax. As a result the poor man suffers. F#@king greed makes me angry.

          • Barba_Papa

            Greed is what greed does. I can’t fault corporations for trying to find ways to make more money. I can only fault our politicians for enabling that and selling us out.

    • Jens Holm

      The major humiliation is that they elected Chavez because those before could not handle their infected feudal system, which also has kept very big parts of the population as porr not develloping such rich possibilities.

      Now Maduro seemes to have been elected, but was he cheeting. Whatever You Hero Maduro is, he is no organizer for production.

      To me socialisme is hard work as in kapitalism, but all get the parts, they deserve.

      I see Maduro and Chavez making it down to no production even helped by fx Spain and the Pope. No compromize and like slaughtering an old cow, which not gave much milk.

      I see the Chairman of their more or less infected parlament as an unknown. Maduros can make it worse. But can the new guy make it better. I doubt it.

      Both main parties ssytematicly has made it worse and for each other as well. USA seemes to have helpede it to be even worse.

      The humaliation is, they not even has some replacements.

      No

      • verner

        feck right out of these threads- for good, pls

        • Jens Holm

          Its v ery easy. When several countries by fx Bolivar, which gave Bolivia its name) got themselved independent, it was against the Sanish Feudal state and too much tax went to Madrid.

          But the uprisers wasnt the people but the “New Feudals”. Those alsp were traditionals in religion being catholíc. Their peasents and farmers wasnt in that uprise at all and included slaves in the dark skin version.

          It also didnt include the many indians in the inland. Thats what we see today.

          USA by the Monroe Doctrine has had no reasons to change anything, because they could biuy an sell and devellop the parts, they could use. Those are plantations and in money today OIL.

          By that Venezuela are very well develloped in some regions, but others are very poor and in the old days. We also see women are very low and crimes against women are very high.

          So the break over came by the poor also being more and more because of healthcare and cheep food. Those demanded to be the rest in stead of just being passive.

          Here USA has supported the Feudals to get, what they needed – and best – get it cheep as well.

          So the best the non feudals has got are the socialists, which unfortubnatly dont understand production. It doesnt matter which kind of system. If it cant produce, it is not usefull.

          (In that picture You of course also have some few violent uprisers and militaries and brutals such as police and feudal milisias). Feudals are the main producers og drugs making a lot of money and for somne reasons hasnt got as much money from the export mainly to USA(profit maximation by USA and others).

          So thats were Chvez came in. His solution was to nationalize things as a classicalk move.

          But as in Cuba it was the wrong way. The people do share whats there, but they have no incitament for production. We see exact the same in Cuba. A lot of land is just grass because of people themselves think they get nothing and by that dont work as hard as they should – or dont work at all.

          Oil is low because it suddenly is taxed high, so You wont renew and improve the production. By that You get less and less oil to sell, because the production hardly get repair.

          We see exact the same in the Syrian Feudal Dictatorship. They dont understand that thier very good local old being 30-40 years old gives 3-5 times less then if they used methods of today even the Feudals are owners. They name oilfields being dry – they are only for them in ancient methods.

          If fx Shell and BP took over the oil and gas production in Syria, You might have 5 times more oil from the old fields and they would get profit – BUT You might get 2 of the 5 Yourself instead of NOTHING.

          Its the same kind of mechanism. Russians in Syria is in the middle. They are not advanced in taking up oil and gas. They might be able to take up to 3 times more, but the Baathist would bet only 1 time more.

          I cant fect out those very complicated things in 3 lines. You cant explain and make a car just by its wheel or windows.

          The China help in Venezuala has not helped, beccause Chavez and Maduro cant change by investments, which were possible by the Chinese loan. They just are used for spending as usual – and gone.

          The gold will be the same thing. Maduros only are able to eat the gold. Then thats gone too.

          So thats my John Wayne version of it. Bad times. It has nothing to do with Russians, Chinese and only a little by USA.

          In this USA hardly is a country. Its about private world companies based on shares and the stockmarket, which now has lost a lot of money as well as dont make any, because they are blocket. Strange help USA block Maduros to help the private companies. It wont. That stops extra.

  • Jesus

    It is likely US will loose this proxy war in Venezuela because it’s leaders have a deficit thinking, and their gunboat diplomacy is not going to work very well against determined peers that have serious investments there.

  • cliff

    I could see the Chinese,the Russian and the allies of Venezuela came into an agreement on jointly helping 5he Maduro government on any storm.

    • Barba_Papa

      And for how long would they keep this up? As Maduro cannot survive economically on his own. Even Chavez only survived by funneling all the oil proceeds into the economy in order to play Santa Claus to the poor. That is why propping up Maduro for long term is a losing investment. If China and Russia want to safeguard their investments it would be far smarter to make a deal with Guaido, before they themselves become tainted with Maduro and a successor government would just annul their investments and loan out of sheer spite.

      America may be the one throwing its weight behind Guaido but I reckon that Russia and China could position themselves as to become kingmakers if they played their cards right. Maduro is a dead man walking, either sooner or later, but he has no long term future unless he can transform Venezuela’s economy into one that actually works. Which seems highly doubtful as he seems hell bent on maintaining the policies that don’t work,

      • IMHO

        What you fail to mention in your B.S. posts is that Venezuela’s downfall is due to U.S. efforts to crush any government that does not bow to U.S. hegemony.
        It is a FACT that this would not be going on if not for U.S. interference.

        • vladput

          not true

        • Bill Wilson

          LOL! The US has sat back for the past 19 years watching Chavez then Maduro turn Venezuela into a shithole country.

      • Jesus

        Forget about Russia and China supporting Guaido, the lines are drawn.
        Russian and Chinese influence and help managing the Venezuela economy and improving oil production capacity will blunt US sanctions and reduce its bite. Socialism applied in a country that is rich in resources can work well for all its people, Venezuela has the largest oil deposits in the world.

        • occupybacon

          1/3 Venezuelan exports go in USA

          • Dušan Mirić

            Good. It is cheaper to trade than to wage a war. Ancient Greek proverb says that we don’t have to live but we must trade

          • FlorianGeyer

            They don’t have to go to the USA.

          • Jesus

            The exports that have been going to US and paid in dollars facilitating the sanction game against Venezuela, will head to China in exchange for yuans.

          • FlorianGeyer

            Exactly.

          • Ronald

            Those exports will be stopped as the US claims it will only pay Guaido.

      • FlorianGeyer

        ” in order to play Santa Claus to the poor. ”

        What is wrong with that Barba?

        The EU gives to ‘the poor’ as well. That is what responsible governments do.

  • IMHO

    The U.S. has already won. Guaido will be in full charge soon. China and Russia are a joke.
    Another win for corporate democracy.

  • peter mcloughlin

    $120 billion in loans to Venezuela means China and Russia have vital interests at stake in the country. Of course, the US also claims to have vital commercial, and strategic, interests in its own near-abroad. This can be traced back to the Monroe Doctrine when the US was still a fledgling country and wary of the Old World imperial powers’ intentions. But Washington risks unleashing a ‘Latin American Spring’. Such a spring was disastrous for the Middle East, with serious repercussions for Europe. Already you have the two largest states in the region, Brazil and Mexico, lining up on opposing sides. Combined with deteriorating conditions in other global hotspots, events seem to be fulfilling the pattern of history: another world war – nuclear war.
    https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/

  • Tommy Jensen

    Russia just sold out Rusal, the worlds largest aluminium producer, to Wall Street. The majority in the Board are now Americans, all Jews, meaning US now has a stronghold in Siberia, Russia´s heart.

    Belarus is talking about approaching EU and NATO, Kazakstan has $15 billion freezed in US, blackmailed to allow US bases inside and change all schoolbooks to Western style. Ukraine is lost because of hesitation and lack of due diligence while Russia fool around in Syria to please Israel.

    Russia could do it, but its not in the Chinese friendly and shy nature or Russia´s hooker love for Americans, to use the brutality that is necessary to change the outcome.

    • occupybacon

      The most Russian billionaires are Jews too.

      • FlorianGeyer

        And thieves.

        • vladput

          amen

          putin, too.
          amen2

    • Daniel

      Russia has been US (Zionist) owned since the Bolchevik war. They are the controlled opposition like China.

      • Joe Kerr

        You wish. Is that why the zio-thugs kidnapped Meng?

        • Daniel

          It’s part of the game. That way the West will have distrust in China, since they are “spying” on us. There have to be these frictions (West against East) to keep the game going.

    • Joe Kerr

      Not quite Wall St., as the group with the controlling interest in Rusal is headed by Lord Gregory Barker, a British elitist and business partner of Roman Abramovich. Roman knows better than to cross swords with Putin.

  • Redadmiral

    The Yanki Yelps want a good old fashioned Fascist Dictator and Gauido fits the bill. He comes from a lower middle class background and has been groomed by the CIA since 2005 when he was one of 5 Venezuelan students selected for training in Serbia under the auspices of CANVAS (Center for Applied Non-Violent Action and Strategies). 2 years later he turned up in George Washington University where he studied “Governance and Political Management”. When he returned home he applied himself diligently to getting control of protests and turning them violent over the next 10 years. While Gauido is now known as the President of the National assembly it is a position he was never elected to. Popular Will is one of the 4 opposition parties that comprise the Democratic Unity Block which have a rotation system in place for the President of the assembly. It was Popular Will’s turn. PW’s leader is under house arrest, their deputy leader is holed up in the Chilean Embassy which should have meant that Juan Mejia should be the President. For reasons we can now understand, Gauido is.

  • Luke Hemmming

    Geez people wake up. The banking cartels are the ones that screw a nation’s economy. Not the sock puppets in charge, that includes the US. The deep state and the Zionist controlled banking system are intertwined. They work with each other to screw whatever country they want to. Sanctions are but a part in it. Maduro is no angel we know this but better the devil you know than some us/Zionist/deep state sock puppet that is going to give away one of the most valuable resources it has to some western owned corporation. That’s the crux of the matter. Selling out to the western world who will screw the country and milk it for all its value and they don’t give a fuck about the people because all they are, are fucking slaves like the rest of us slaves to the system. Fucking cattle, sheeple or whatever you want to call us. Used and abused fed scraps just to keep us barely alive so they can use us to line their pockets.

  • tapatio
    • Joe Kerr

      The photo tells the story, and many similar stories of misery and war… all for the glory of zion.

      • tapatio

        True.

  • Joe Kerr

    Interesting that even Bloomberg described the pro-Maduro demo as “bigger than expected”, meaning regime change in Venezuela won’t come easy… if at all. No doubt China and Russia saw this as well.

  • Justin

    So……
    Ukraine (close to Russia)
    Taiwan (close to China)
    Venezuela (Close to USA)

    I wonder what agreements can come from this!
    Or i wonder if these are the boiling point nations for which a new world war will be created!

    Remember….. Russia isnt necessarily on China’s side!
    Its a game of chess played by 3 players! Europe is also an influence and so too the Middle east!

    interesting, exciting and dangerous times ahead!

  • Smaug

    Everyone things that Russia and China will get involved. They can’t. Even if they wanted to, there is no way they could effect events as they unfold. Their words mean nothing.

    • verner

      of course they can influence what happens in V – e.g. the destitute states of morons will hesitate to actually undertake a military intervention when they see the possibility of some hardball from russia and china. even the slightest probability of that is enough to stop the morons.

      although you should be aware that the destitute states of morons (aka usa) needs a successful geopolitical venture like venezuela to cover up the trillions of dollars failure in the middle east and since venezuela is in their backyard (they, the morons, feel and a dirty old commie as well) and brimming with oil, the morons feel entitled to that oil, just like the old days when pdvsa was an extention of standard oil and all the revenues was a sideshow for exxon (as it’s called today)

      • Smaug

        No one asked you for an opinion, egomaniac!

        • verner

          well since you are on this open thread I suppose idiots like you will have to accept differing views, but facts remain, even idiots are allowed on these threads and I suspect that is why your simplistic views are on display. twat!!

  • Jens Holm
  • Xoli Xoli

    USA is behind Venezuela gold and oil Venezuela owes nothing to USA.Total interference and instigation as usual.Brittain must give Falklands back to Argentina.Russian visit has speed up USA opposition instigation.

  • Parisa Zoorgoo

    if 911 justice caught up, all these warmongering oil thiefs would be hanged. such a shame the boycows didnt even have the balls to try and kill cheney, or chickenpoo!