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MH17 Trial Starts In Amsterdam, There’s Still No Real Evidence Against ‘Suspects’

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MH17 Trial Starts In Amsterdam, There's Still No Real Evidence Against 'Suspects'

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On March 9th, the trial of four men accused of downing the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 began in Amsterdam. Prosecutors say the suspects, three Russians and a Ukrainian, helped organise the Russian missile system used to shoot down MH17, a civilian aircraft.

The suspects, who are believed to be in Russia, face preliminary charges of the murder of 298 people and of causing the aircraft to crash, resulting in the death of all aboard.

Head judge Hendrik Steenhuis introduced the trial, saying:

“Many have longed for this process for a long time … The next of kin of these 298 deceased enjoy legal rights given to victims.”

A Dutch-led international Joint Investigation (JIT) team spent years collecting evidence before issuing arrest warrants In 2019 for the four suspects: Russians Sergey Dubinsky, Oleg Pulatov and Igor Girkin, and Ukrainian Leonid Kharchenko.

The JIT consists of Ukraine, the Netherlands, Australia, Malaysia and Belgium, and back in 2017 agreed to hold the trials in the Netherlands, under Dutch law after attempts to set up a United Nations-backed tribunal failed.

“The Australian government is determined to get justice for the victims of MH17,” Australian treasurer Josh Frydenburg told the media on March 9th. “Bringing the alleged perpetrators to justice through an open and independent judicial process sends a powerful message. Australia stands with our Dutch friends and our international partners in continuing with this process to bring justice to the victims of MH17.”

If convicted, the suspects could face sentences of up to life in prison.

Russia does not extradite its citizens, and the Kremlin has questioned the legitimacy of the charges. Another side that has questioned the legitimacy of the claims of the investigative team is the Malaysian government, which has repeatedly asked for any actual evidence to be provided by the JIT.

MH17 Trial Starts In Amsterdam, There's Still No Real Evidence Against 'Suspects'

The MH17 investigation narrative, and what is apparently known by the JIT. Click to see full-size image

The trial in the case of the crash of flight MH17, which takes place in the Schiphol court complex near Amsterdam in the Netherlands, was interrupted half an hour after the start due to technical problems. The meeting began at 10:00 local time.

President of the court Hendrick Steenhays began reading out the opening remarks, explaining how the hearings would be held in the initial phase, talking about the defendants and the defense. In this regard, he confirmed that a group of two Dutch lawyers and a Russian lawyer Elena Kutina, who represent the interests of the accused Russian Oleg Pulatov, are present at the trial.

He recalled that the Schiphol complex is reserved for several time periods this and next year: from March 9 to 13, from March 23 to 27, from June 8 to July 3, from August 31 to November 13 and from February 1 to March 26 in 2021. The chairman of the court did not rule out that it might take longer than anticipated to consider the case.

Half an hour after the performance, Steenhase announced a break due to technical problems. At the same time, the official website dedicated to the process stopped working.

Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, crashed on July 17, 2014 near Donetsk. Onboard were 298 people, all of them died. Kiev accused the Donetsk and Luhansk’ People’s Militias of being responsible disaster. In response, the DPR and LPR said they did not have the means to bring down the aircraft at such a height.

The JIT which, under the leadership of the Netherlands Prosecutor General’s Office without the participation of the Russian Federation, carried out what was supposed to pass as an investigation into the circumstances of the crash, and later presented interim results. The investigation claimed that Boeing was shot down from the Buk anti-aircraft missile system, which belonged to the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade of the Russian Armed Forces from Kursk.

Russian Deputy Prosecutor General Nikolai Vinnichenko, said that the Russian side gave the Netherlands not only Russian radar data, but also documentation indicating that the Buk air defense missile that hit Boeing belonged to Ukraine, but the investigators ignored this information.

The Russian Foreign Ministry said that the JIT’s allegations of Russia’s involvement in the crash of the Malaysian Boeing are unfounded and regrettable, the investigation is biased and one-sided.

Later, President Vladimir Putin noted that Russia is not allowed to investigate the crash of the plane in eastern Ukraine, and Moscow can recognize the results of the investigation if it takes part in it fully.

All missiles, the engine of which the Dutch commission for the investigation of the crash of MH17 demonstrated, were disposed of after 2011, the Russian Defense Ministry said.

Russian President’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov has repeatedly stated that Moscow categorically rejects allegations of involvement in the crash of the Malaysian Boeing.

There’s also been numerous third-party actual investigations that have provided ample evidence that there is no way anybody from Donetsk, Luhansk or Russia could’ve actually downed the passenger plane, but they’ve also been entirely disregarded.

The trial and the entire investigation prior to it were heavily politicized and continues to be so. The outcome appears to be determined from the beginning, and the attempts to fit facts into the desired reality are becoming increasingly apparent.

Key MH17 Witness Vladimir Tsemakh: Abduction, Ukrainian Special Services, And Conflict In Donbass (source):

On July 17, 2014, a Malaysian Boeing 777-200ER aircraft was conducting a scheduled passenger flight (MH17) from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. During a transit flight over the territory of Ukraine, the Ukrainian air traffic control charted the plane directly over the conflict zone between government forces and units of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics.

At 13:20 UTC, the aircraft was shot down as a result of a fire damage from unidentified forces.

The Ukrainian side, with Western support, immediately blamed Russia for the incident. In turn, Malaysia, expresses deep concerns over the accusations against Russia and the course of the investigation.

On June 27, 2019, Ukrainian special services detained the ex-commander of one of the air defense units of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic Vladimir Tsemakh in Snejnoe, on the territory of the Donetsk People’s Republic. Ukraine’s State Security Service claimed that he was involved in the MH17 incident. Later, his status was changed to the “witness”. On September 7, 2019, Tsemakh was transferred to the Russian side as a part of the 35 for 35 exchange of the detained persons.

We present to your attention an exclusive interview with Vladimir Tsemakh (original in Russian) that reveals many interesting details.

Kirill Vyshinsky: Greetings. This is the second interview in the People of Donbass series. This man is not used to speaking on camera. He‘s giving the first interview in his life. In 2014, Vladimir Tsemakh was defending his home in Snejnoe in the region of Donbass. After 3 years, he returned to a peaceful life. In the summer of this year, he appeared in Kiev under strange circumstances, where he was arrested under even stranger circumstances. In September, thanks to the exchange of detained persons, Vladimir Tsemakh returned home.

Kirill Vyshinsky (KV): Vladimir Borisovich, good day!

Vladimir Tsemach (VT): Good day.

KV: We flew in the same plane in September, I saw you very briefly. We didn’t have time to say a word, but you were one of the most famous passengers and I really wanted to know your story, because you were made almost the main witness in the case of the downed Boeing.

KV: But this is not the beginning. Let’s start with your background. Tell us a few words about yourself.

VT: I was born in 1961. In 1978, I entered the Poltava Higher Anti-Aircraft Missile Command Red Banner College named after Army General Nikolai Fedorovich Vatutin. In 1982 I graduated. After that, I got to serve in the 40th Army, meaning in Afghanistan. I was there for three and a half months, after which I was sent to the Far East under an experience share (program), where I served until 1992 and went into reserve in 1992 on Victory Day.

KV: And after?

VT: After that, I returned to my hometown. Until 2019, I lived safely, with the exception of 2014, of course.  I had quite a few different jobs. I didn’t sit in any one place very long.

KV: But nothing related to the army?

VT: No, absolutely not.

KV: You were made almost the main witness in the Boeing case only because you had headed Snezhnoy’s air defense since 2014. Tell us how you got there, what it was; what the weaponry was.

VT: I asked the city commandant, ”Am I needed?“ “Yes.” he said, “The anti-aircraft guns are gathering dust.

KV: When did this take place?

VT: It was June 26th, 2014. When I realized that this circus in Kramatorsk and Slavyansk would not easily end. Semenovka… I realized that they would not calm down.

KV: The authorities?

VT: The Ukrainian authorities didn’t want to talk with the people. They decided to talk from a position of strength. If you think that my grandchildren will not think in my language, that they could be forced to think in Ukrainian, this is wrong, I think. So, I had to go to the militia and after Ukrainian aviation attacked the city center, I got people together immediately. On that same day, I had a lot of people there. The armaments we had consisted of two anti-aircraft guns and two man-portable air defense systems.

KV: Tell me. What did you know then -about this downed Boeing?

VT: I knew as much as the general population knew. I found out either in the evening or the next morning about what happened.

KV: And tell me. In 2019, were you still serving in the army, in the People’s Militia?

VT: No. I finished my service in 2017. I had a compression fracture of the spine. So, my health didn’t allow me to serve.

KV: You were detained on June 27th. Right?

VT: Yes.

KV: On the 28th you were in Kiev. That’s actually the next day. You were detained in Snezhnoye which is around 60 kilometers from the separation line. Right?

VT: It’s further away by road. Turns out the city is only 78 kilometers to Donetsk.

KV: They detained you on the 27th. On the 28th you were already in Kiev, and on the 29th you were in court, where a preventive measure of restraint was chosen. How, under what circumstances, did you end up on the territory of Ukraine in such a short time?

VT: They took me straight away to the separation line. There he constantly kept in touch with the other side.

KV: He? Who’s “he”?

VT: The driver. He participated in the abduction. There were two people. Mortars were fired from the other side. They said they would shell five times for cover fire. They started pushing the wheelchair, and then a sixth shell was fired. I said, “Hey! If you want me dead, why don’t you just get on with it and bury me right here? Why drag this on?” That sixth shell almost hit us. I was even covered with dirt. It seems that it was before the shelling. Was it our people responding so quickly? You can understand the condition I was in. Under tranquilizers, I couldn’t perceive what was happening around me very well. We sat around and waited for the shelling to end, then they put a bag over my head. They kept me in a basement for about 20 minutes.

KV: Did this happen on the other side or here?

VT: On the other side, literally across the Creek. Their position was just 20 meters away -not far away it turns out. With a bag on my head, we ran for about half a kilometer to a minivan. They measured my blood pressure as 190 to 110. They said, “Ok,” the insect is healthy, normal. My head was bandaged and I was immediately sent in a minivan to Kiev.

KV: Were you transported through the separation line in a wheelchair?

VT: I was transported to the creek in the wheelchair and then was put on my feet. My legs buckled and they shoved me in the back. I fell to my hands. That’s all.

KV: So, you were in such a condition that you couldn’t walk?

VT: My legs buckled. Even when I was put in the wheelchair, I couldn’t put my feet on the step.

KV: But why?

VT: I couldn’t. They had to lift my legs, no more than 5 centimeters.

KV: Why did you feel like that? What happened?

VT: They injected two tranquilizers in me at home and a third, in front of Donetsk.

KV: What condition were you in when they brought you to Kiev?

VT: I began feeling normal about a week later. I’m not used to drugs like that.

KV: Was it something strong?

VT: Well, yes. I feel most rested when I sleep 7-8 hours. But I usually only sleep 6 or 7. When I was detained, I was always woken up at 6 AM; then I kept dozing off until around 10 AM.

KV: You said they took every document you had in your house and on your person?

VT: Yes.

KV: They attached them to the case file. Were they classified as secret?

VT: Yes.

KV: They fell under the stamp of secrecy with the consequence, in theory, of improving the case.

VT: That’s what happened.

KV: Nevertheless, in mid-July, your military ID appeared on some kind of investigative web site, it seems, Bellingcat. How can you explain this?

VT: It turns out the Security Service of Ukraine provided this information.

KV: Did it turn out to be a “classified” investigation?

VT: There was no secret. Collaboration was happening as if it was normal. There were no secrets.

KV: Where were you detained in Kiev, in what conditions? What was it like?

VT: At Askold’s detention center. The cell was two by five meters, with two bunks. I was alone there, literally. Just before being freed, a man was put in the cell with me. So, I was constantly alone. For the first two weeks I didn’t even have a bar of soap. I asked, “Give me at least a little piece of soap.“ But, “No”. They didn’t give me anything. For such a serious structure, you would think they could spend some money, at least for a bar of soap. It didn’t happen. As far as nutrition goes -you’ll live. You won’t die of hunger. For hours, it was lights out at 10 PM and rise at 6 AM.

KV: Were the lights turned off?

VT: No. The lights were on all the time. It was dim, but one light was always on. I was allowed to walk in the courtyard between 2 PM and 5 PM, always alone.

KV: Were you always under surveillance?

VT: Yes. The toilet was in the cell.

KV: How were the interrogations?

VT: If the Australians and the Dutch came, then this took place on the premises of the pre-trial detention center and if the SBU investigators conducted it, then I was brought to them.

KV: Were you subjected to polygraph testing?

VT: No. There weren’t any. The representative of the Prosecutor General’s office for some reason really “loved” me -constantly threatened me with a life sentence. But then, it was interesting. When the second interrogation was taking place, with alleged Australian or Dutch representatives, it was very obvious that they were brought up in Slavic families. The representative of Holland Ara Khataryan (I don’t remember the last name. It was like Armenian.) But she spoke the language exclusively. She spoke without an accent. She knew the language perfectly.

With the representative from Australia, Sergey, it was apparent that he was either an immigrant or that he was brought up in a Slavic family. He also spoke Russian well. But at that time, before the second interrogation, Ara was the only one present. The representative of the Prosecutor General’s Office told me, “Look. You’re not being exchanged. You’re going to get a life sentence, but a lot will depend on what answers you give to these comrades.” The camera is immediately turned on. Standard procedure. They asked, “Were there any threats?“ I answered, “If life imprisonment is not a threat, then everything is fine, good.“

KV: Do you treat this in a humorous light? Although, naturally, there was no way to have fun at that moment.

VT: I am a military man, after all.

KV: Can you tell us, in more detail, about these people, these foreigners?

VT: Representatives of the Australian police and the Netherlands police.

KV: Just them? Were there any Americans, or British, somebody else?

VT: No. No. Constantly, if the English-speaking comrade is sitting on the Dutch side, then the Russian-speaking one is Australian. And during the last interrogation -Ara and Sergey were both Russian speakers.

KV: Did they coerce you?

VT: They offered me to go into witness protection. They offered citizenship and a home in the Netherlands. I wondered why there and not in Australia, but I didn’t try to bargain. laughs

KV: Maybe you could have lived in the Netherlands?

VT: No. I’m used to living where I was born. If I came back to Khabarovsk I would still be closer to my native places. Nevertheless, they didn’t offer native places. In 2014, I was told that, for my Afghanistan service, a Moscow communal apartment is paid for and that I should live in it. How could I be cruel by leaving the elderly and the kids behind? Running away is always easy.

KV: Was there any “physical means of interrogation”?

VT: When they put me on the minivan, they struck my kidneys “a little bit.”

KV: Why did you talk to them at all, and not refer to the 63rd article of the Constitution, which allows you to not testify against yourself and relatives? This is a standard procedure. By the way, they should have introduced you to it.

VT: I know of the article. But why should I be afraid? I don’t consider myself a terrorist. I protected my home. Who am I afraid of? I believe that these comrades and I don’t deserve judgments. This is how I feel on the inside.

KV: The case against you, as I understand correctly, is the 258th, second part. Meaning the creation of a terrorist organization or group. Has the case not been closed yet?

14:04 VT: Yes. It turns out I’ve been released on bail.

KV: What do you think awaits you in Ukraine?

VT: Nothing good is waiting for me, especially if such comrades are in the Prosecutor General’s office. They start slobbering -probably over the thought of putting me away for life.

KV: Are you ready to talk in court about what happened to you, about the abduction, tranquilizers, forced detention, and interrogations? Are you going to appeal to international courts?

VT: I’m considering such a possibility.

KV: What’s your assessment of everything that has happened to you?

VT: I consider it an act of terrorism against me on the part of the Ukrainian state -trying to hang me. Well, I was the head of air defense. I explained to them that, for the most part, I did scare off their aircraft. Once the planes flew over and then didn’t fly any more in the area of Snezhnoye, I told my people, “Guys, bring me empty pipes.“ We filled them with sand, made triggers out of tin, painted them, and I had eight groups of “actors” which showed that we really did have MANPADS -and a lot of them too. Although we actually only had two Zu-23 guns and two MANPADS. And with just that we held the defense of such a territory! It’s just a title I had, “the head of air defense”. You could hardly even call it a platoon -by any stretch.

KV: Do you consider yourself a victim of terrorism?

VT: Of course. But this is a bigger mess because they really have nothing on me now or in the future. Maybe, because I didn’t like the events, he was trying to use me, the bigger man, for some sort of scape-goat absolution. It will be interesting to see how they try to hold their ridiculous stories together.

KV: Obviously, your attitude towards Ukraine has changed after what happened to you.

VT: For me it’s still my homeland. It’s bitter and insulting to look at everything happening there. For some reason, people religiously believe in help from the West. But I say it‘s probably necessary to read Taras Bulba. Everything is clearly explained there.

KV: Lyakhi (Poles/Polish) did not help?

VT: Right. They didn’t help. Such ideas are somehow new to this faith. It’s time to live, listening to your own head.

KV: Tell me, please, what is the nature of Donetsk character?

VT: During service in the Soviet army, if people from Donetsk came to serve, some of the gentlemen officers would clutch their heads. It’s a separate caste of people. We have a multinational side. More than two hundred nationalities live in the Donbass. The whole world built it in due time. So there you find friendship and camaraderie and cuisine -something like a special symbiosis.

KV: Did this help in 2014?

VT: Of course, it helped. There was no time to mobilize any forces. People were taught how to fight in literally three to four days. As subsequent events show, some can’t even learn this in two years -let alone three to four days.

KV: Thank you very much.

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  • Lone Ranger

    MH17=MH370
    It was shot down by ukropnazis.
    Interesing fun fact the Ukrainian Su-25 pilot who was accused by Donetks to be the real culprit comitted “suicide”.
    I wonder why…

    • AM Hants

      The pilot, who landed with ‘Air to air’ missiles missing and in a panic he had taken down the wrong plane.

      Koloimoisky, the Ukrainian oligarch, in control of Ukraine aviation and Air traffic control, who apologised for taking down the wrong plane.

      The deleted BBC video, where the witness statements mentioned the military jets, shadowing the MH17, Israel style.

      President Putin, returning from a very successful BRICS summit. In a plane with similar colouring and similar radar image to the MH17. Why did his flight Chang direction, following a phone call with Obama? Remember, prime Minister Modi, also coming back from the BRICS summit, was just behind the MH17.

      Atlantic Council controlled NATO, had just finished off their Breeze Exercise, in the Black Sea, with an Aegis Destroyer and focused on air communication. Even civilian pilots were complaining about NATO interference in their air communications.

      The US, whose satellite was actioned, when the MH17 tragedy happened. Yet, neither NATO or the US handed over any of their satellite or radar data, to help with the investigation.

      Well it did take how many years for Ukraine to admit to taking out the Siberia to Israel flight, with so many micro biologists on board. Just like the MH17. US never apologised for taking down the Iranian passenger jet, and didn’t the promote the Co of the military ship involved and give him a hero’s medal? Not forgetting how the US President was so thrilled and appreciative to Israel, when they took out the USS Liberty, in a false flag, hoping Egypt would get the blame?

      Why did the air traffic control operative, responsible for the MH17, go on holiday, the following day, never to return and why was she never interviewed.

      Seriously hope Max Van Der Werff, manages to get his evidence out, in the public domain.

      Even the elderberry bushes, lining the roads, when the BUK was allegedly being transported, have their story to tell.

      Good luck Russia.

      • Lone Ranger

        Good points.
        And all true.
        Indeed, I forgot to mention Siberian Air 1812.
        Ukraine and U.S. wont get away with this.

      • FlorianGeyer

        Like the Assange extradition hearing last week, the ‘Russia Guilty’ verdict is pre-ordained as we both will suspect, AM.

        Its as if a perfect storm is hitting the West now and this show trial is part of it.

        • AM Hants

          Do you remember Litvinenko, represented by Bell Pottinger, the PR spinners, who were given $500 million, by the Pentagon, to spin the Iraq War. Sorry, the high profile investigation relating to the Browder Tea Party, where Polonium tea was served, but, only one person was poisoned by it. Reminds me of the Skripals, and Porton Down hospitality. Gosh, keep rambling. The Litvinenko Court Case, with an under qualified Coroner (out of the Common Purpose stable), running the show and delivering a ‘probably’ verdict?

          How many Supreme Courts were set up with funding and control, provided by Sorass?

          How many MEPs are funded and controlled by Sorass?

          How many of those involved in MH17 donate heavily to NATOs ‘Atlantic Council’ Think Tank?

          Who funds and controls the Hague Courts?

          When was the last time they showed they stuck with the rules of law and not the wallet of Sorass, Browder and friends?

          What I found ironic, was the location of the Hague Courts to the Israel Controlled Schipol Airport? No coincidence, is there and why is my mind so cynical?

          • FlorianGeyer

            It ia more apparent to many now that the rulers of Britain ( and other nations) only use the general populations to serve the interests of the elite.

            The main three drivers of control have always been , brute force and terror, slavery and serfdom/debt slavery. Add to this the rulers exploitation of identity politics in all its guises, and we are living in a simmering cauldron of hatred.

            Cynicism is the result. :)

          • AM Hants

            It used to work well.

            I was flicking through the DM earlier, just to see what three stories they are running with today. Cannot believe Biden is the front runner for the Dems, despite all he comes out with. Didn’t Clinton and Bloomburg come up with some form of voting machine that runs the polls? See they have tweeked it well and god knows what they have got in mind, to get Clinton back in, courtesy Biden’s Vice, between now and November.

            Can you imagine the hysteria, if Trump came out with anything like the words and actions of Biden?

          • FlorianGeyer

            ” but how much exposure will the give to Biden saying that Democrats choose “truth over facts”? Is that like Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez saying she’d rather be morally right than factually correct? ”

            I also see that the russian pranksters who globally call the rich and famous with spoof identities ,called ex Prince Harry posing as Greta Thunberg.
            Harry was less than complimentary about Trump.

            More proof , if we need’ it that being a Royal does not imply intelligence :)

            Biden is completely senile and a perfect candidate for US President.

            https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2019/08/08/democrat-joe-biden-who-chooses-truth-over-facts-claims-trump-doesnt-deny-the-kkk/

          • AM Hants

            To be honest, I have completely lost interest in Washington DC. Cannot stand Clinton, but, cannot see much difference between any of the candidates. Feels like some toxic mould, that ends up like some ‘flesh eating’ virus. So few even notice just how low they have sunk. So it is Agent Orange V Clinton/Biden/Soros/Atlantic Council., Sort of like Poroshenko V Zelensky.

            ……….. Prince Harry, so love the the work of the Russian pranksters.

            Prince George, marryin Greta, who goes on to become Queen of England.

            Then you have the penguin problem. At least Harry has a mate in Norway, who can help those penguins, as ‘Happy Feet’, comes to mind.

            Then you have Agent Orange and Boris, as granny, keeping out of politics comes to mind. Funny, how Harry was so chummy when Boris was as tuck on the zip wire, and Daniel Craig was having fun with granny and the corgis. Before Meghan and when we were hosting the Olympics?

            Actually, wonder if he is having some type of mental breakdown and if he is feel sorry for him. He looks a reck. Virtually bald, skin and bone, eyes so dead and so full of pity. The wife turns up for a Commonwealth event, looking as though she has turned up for some St Patrick’s day event. Wonder if she got the dates muddled up?.. As she grinned, as though her dentures were enjoying the medication, whilst everybody else looked rather glum. Wonder why she could not make eye contact with Camilla, after the step mother-in-law, lost the media attention, for her domestic violence, all genders, speech. Megs, got her US PR company to dish out the photos of Megs at an East London school.

            Wonder who will be paying the rent, for the Royal formerly known as ‘Prince’ to live?

          • FlorianGeyer

            If Harry has any sense, he would dump Meghan and go and live on a small island in the South Atlantic for a year or so. He has the classic ‘prick ruling heart ‘ virus that has always been a grave danger to mankind . :)

            Daniel Craig’s latest Bond movie is the last for him and totally spoilt by Homo Erotic scenes and the Woke disease. I will never watch such shite .

          • AM Hants

            Glad I am not a male, and have an unpricked heart, haha. Sounds terrible, however, females can also go down with the same affliction, if memory serves me correct, haha.

            Hope for his own sanity, he finds the help he needs. Self pity is so not a good look. He even made it all about himself, at the disabled vets award ceremony. Which was seriously taking the urine.

            I have tried watching Daniel Craig in Bond, but, have never managed to stay awake through any of them. Despite trying my hardest to watch them, owing to the allegations the scripts were based on Soros.

            Used to like Dame Judy, but, she is coming across as a Laurel and Hardy double act with Dame Mirren. Think it is the crowd they hang around with. So many egos, battling for top spot, at the bottom of the swamp. Think Timothy Dalton, then Roger Moore were my favourite Bonds. There again, only watched the films owing to bank holiday entertainment and liked the sound tracks.

            Thanks for letting me know it is Hollywood Woke.

      • goingbrokes

        Plus: Ukraine is one of the suspects, so should not be on the JIT –
        Malaysia was excluded –
        A spanish air traffic controller working in Ukraine testified there were military planes in the air, he disappeared and has not been seen…
        Almaz Antey tests and manufacturers of Buk testimony excluded –
        So much bs!

        • Bruno Giordano

          Ah, that is why Iran is not involved in the investigation into the PS752 downing. Oh… they are. How is that possible… And then that “Spanish air traffic controller” who was expelled from the country two months earlier. LMAO

          • AM Hants

            Carlos, who ‘tweeted’ when it was happening, according to you, left the building 2 months previously?

            Iran held their hands up to the tragedy and having no reason to trust NATO member nations, or Ukraine, kept them out of the loop, initially.
            Examining everything first, with full audit trail, before sending information to others involved.

            Ukrainian Boeing 777, which uses ‘fly by wire’ technology. Just like MH17 and MH370 were Boeing 777’s, with ‘fly by wire’ technology. Now why are Boeing having so many problems selling their planes, owing to ‘fly by wire’ technology and what happened to the Boeing flight in Ethiopia?

            Remind me when did the Iranian plane go down and when did the MH17 go down?

          • Bruno Giordano

            Carlos was a fake air traffic controller – i.e. no air traffic controller at all. He was expelled from Ukraine in May for his anti Maidan activism. A.o. had an interview on RT Spain. Even if he would have been an atc prior to that – which is totally incredible and also denied by the Spanish embassy – he definitely would not have been allowed to be an atc two months after he was expelled. No way.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9971785f4980b6a1eb661986f418c5c80bb6b0d1f96bc28cd3b563091aa8950d.png
            He’s been in a Spanish prison afterwards for fraud. Then showed up in Romania, where he even appeared on TV in a cooking program. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c2288ab803f8f843092b9e0988d751dd5e3a601649e0dbd0bf8fa6c7d3f96d50.jpg

            So why is Iran, the “prime suspect” in the downing of flight PS752 leading the “investigations”? Have you seen their preliminary report? How does that compare with the preliminary report from the DSB that was published two months after the crash, and was fully in accordance with what ICAO expects? What is the status re the black boxesof PS752? When it did go down is irrelevant. What’s relevant is the hypocrisy of people who pretend that they don’t understand that sovereign countries must take the lead in such cases.

            I’ll ignore your “fly by wire” nonsense.

          • AM Hants

            Carlos, made a lot of sense on his Twitter feed, though, did he not?

            Why did the Air Traffic Control Officer, responsible for the MH17 go on holiday, the following day, never to return and was never interviewed?

            Just went to find the international complaints, with regards keeping the airspace open, over the warzone, but, got waylaid, by some archived articles, that were well worth a period of reflection

            Who Are The JIT?

            The JIT is not a UN body. It’s just a group of policemen and public prosecutors assembled by Kiev. Its work is heavily dependent on intelligence drip-fed to it by the notorious Ukrainian SBU, still smarting over Germany’s defeat by the Allies, including Russia, in 1945. None of its members seems to have any aviation expertise, indeed it would be fair to say that none of its members possesses any relevant qualification to conduct such a sensitive investigation. Absurdly, it has relied upon social media reports and information, or disinformation, as the case may be, supplied by the anti-Russian Bellingcat propaganda website…

            …I note that analysis of the shrapnel found in the poor captain’s body confirms that it came through the cockpit windows. The SAM was fired from the ground, by definition, and approached the target, which was in level flight at FL310, from below…

            https://www.veteranstoday.com/2016/10/02/shrimpton-the-joke-jit-report-on-mh17/

            ……………………….

            …The Brink of War

            Last Monday morning was not a pleasant one for the US State Department. Russian officials surprised Washington and its NATO partners when it released all available satellite imagery and air traffic control data which was recorded in and around the final minutes of Flight MH17 – and presented it to the world media on live television. The data painted a very different picture, drawing contrasting conclusions to what Washington and Kiev officials had been disseminating via western media since July 17th. Following their presentation, Moscow handed its findings – air traffic data and time stamped satellite imagery – to European authorities. We will review those findings in detail later in this report. In stark contrast, US officials have been reluctant to do the same. Is Washington willing to share any object data or evidence to the public, or is it only interested in sharing that which somehow fits into the same predetermined narrative it stood by on July 17th, one which already assigned guilt to both rebel fighters in eastern Ukraine and Russia?…

            …MH17: A Doomed Flight Path

            A Malaysian Airlines spokesman has already confirmed that, for some unknown reason, Kiev-based Ukrainian Air Traffic Control (ATC) ordered MH17 off of its original flight path along the international air route, known as L980.

            Most likely, this order was given to pilots while MH17 was still in Polish air space. L980 is one of the most popular and most congested air routes in the world, as well as a key link between major international hubs in Europe, like London Heathrow, Amsterdam Schiphol, and Frankfurt, and Asian destinations, like Singapore, Mumbai, Hong Kong and Kuala Lumpur…

            As MH17 moved into Ukrainian air space, it was moved by ATC Kiev approximately 200 miles north – putting it on a new course, heading directly into a war zone, a well-known dangerous area by now – one that’s hosted a number of downed military craft over the previous 3 weeks.

            Robert Mark, a commercial pilot and editor of Aviation International News Safety magazine, confirmed that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur would normally travel along a route significantly further south than the route MH17 was diverted onto. Data on all airline flight records can be found here…

            …Did this order to change the flight path come from the Ukrainian authorities? Was the pilot instructed to change course? To be sure, the order to change the flight path did not come from Eurocontrol, but rather from ATC in Kiev…

            … UPDATE TBC: A number of bloggers have reported that the past flights on FlightRadar and FlightAware were changed between July 24-25th, the new “old flights” were placed over the Donetsk People’s Republic instead of the flights going further south. This does not jibe with what was reported last week by researcher Vagelis Karmiros using data from flight-tracking website Flightaware and published on a number established sites like Zero Hedge. Stay tuned here for updates…

            …Why Kiev air traffic controllers order MH17 to suddenly drop its altitude, from 35,000 feet to around 33,000 feet, just before the plane’s demise is unknown for sure, but it would have been near impossible for the alleged rebel gunman occupying this relatively small rebel-held patch of land to make a visual sighting of MH17 and acquire the target during the 1-2 minute window they would have had (assuming they were even in possession of the BUK missile system). The Los Angeles Times reports:

            “Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was cruising just 1,000 feet above restricted airspace when it was struck by a missile in Ukraine’s Donetsk region, according to aviation and intelligence officials.“Despite ongoing violence in eastern Ukraine, including the recent downing of two military aircraft, Ukrainian aviation officials had closed the region’s airspace only below 32,000 feet in altitude.Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was cruising just 1,000 feet above restricted airspace (33,000 ft) when it was struck by a missile in Ukraine’s Donetsk region, according to aviation and intelligence officials.”

            To date, Kiev has refused to acknowledge or explain why the plane was moved into position in this way. Moreover, Interfax news agency reported that Ukraine’s SBU security service confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew immediately after the incident…

            …Whistleblower: A Spanish Air Traffic Controller in Kiev

            All evidence pointing to a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet in the same frame as MH17, also validates the testimony of ‘Carlos’ [unconfirmed report], an ATC contractor in Kiev. ETN received information from an air traffic controller (Borispol Airport) in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17:…

            https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

            …………………..

            The Chameleon in the Room

            …The announcement of U.S. BREEZE and RAPID TRIDENT II military maneuvers came on May 21, 2014, and were announced on the website operated by Vice President Joe Biden’s office. Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, is a newly-named director of the Ukrainian natural gas and oil company Burisma Holdings, Ltd., owned by IhorKolomoisky, the Ukrainian-Israeli mafia oligarch, whose is known as the «Chameleon». Kolomoiskyhas raised his own mercenary army, complete with the BUK missiles allegedly used in the shootdown of MH-17. Kolomoisky, the Governor of Dnipropetrovsk oblast in eastern Ukraine, has threatened terrorist attacks against Russian-speaking officials in eastern Ukraine, including assassinations.

            Burisma is a typical RUIM [Russian – Ukrainian – Israeli – Mafia] operation, with subsidiaries in such tax havens as Cyprus and the British Virgin Islands. It is part of Kolomoisky’s large umbrella corporation called Privat Group.

            Kolomoisky, estimated to be the second-richest person in Ukraine, also has strong connections inside Kiev’s Borispol International Airport, where it has been reported that Ukrainian Interior Ministry troops stormed the air traffic control tower shortly before MH-17 was shot down. A Spanish air traffic controller, who possessed knowledge of the Ukrainian Interior Ministry’s involvement in the shootdown of MH-17, reportedly had his life threatened by people he described as «Maidan» troops, a reference to the Maidan Square uprising that toppled the Ukrainian government earlier this year. The Spanish controller, identified only as «Carlos,» understood that the shootdown of MH-17 was carried out by supporters of former Ukrainian Prime Minister YuliaTymoshenko and Interior Minister ArsenAvakov. Kolomoisky is a political ally of Tymoshenko and Avakov..

            …Kolomoisky’s forces are armed with advanced weaponry, obtained both from Ukrainian weapons inventories and from purchases on the black market. Kolomoisky’s forces reportedly possess the BUK surface-to-air missile system said to have been used to shoot down MH-17. Kolomoisky’s forces, comprising Ukrainian regular military personnel; neo-Nazi units from west Ukraine, and foreign mercenaries, including Georgians, Romanians, and white supremacists from Sweden and Germany; and ex-Israel Defense Force Blue Helmet commandos, are mainly separated into four battalions: the Azov Battalion; the Aidar Battalion, the Donbass Battalion; and the 2,000-strong Dniepr-1 (or Dnipro-1) Battalion, which was responsible for the deadly May 1 fire-bombing of the trade union building in Odessa and the burning alive of people trapped inside the Mariupol Police Station on May 9. Dnipro-1 also maintains a 20,000-member reserve force.

            At the heart of Kolomoisky’s Army is a Nazi «Brownshirt»-style force of ardent Kolomoisky loyalists who have used guns, iron bars, and batons to seize control of factories and offices in Ukraine that Kolomoisky has expropriated from so-called «separatist» sympathizers.

            Some of the Georgians who serve in Kolomoisky’s Army have reportedly been trained in the use of BUK missile systems previously sold by Ukraine to Georgia under the presidency of MikheilSaakashvili. Kolomoisky has utilized ex-President Saakashvili’s «consulting services» in Dnipropetrovsk in the military and political campaign against the breakaway people’s republics of Donetsk and Luhansk…

            https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon/

            …………………

            https://www.sott.net/image/s9/196188/large/Russian_Defence_briefing.jpg

            Question from Russia to Kiev and Washington: ‘What was that Su-25 Ukrainian fighter jet doing behind MH17?’

            …………………..

            https://www.sott.net/image/s9/196192/large/Russian_Defence_briefing_2.jpg

            Russian radar evidence showed an Su-25 military jet was close behind MH17 at the time of its ‘crash’, contrary to Kiev’s earlier statement that it had no aircraft in the area at the time. The rebels in eastern Ukraine have no air force.

            ……………….

            https://www.sott.net/image/s9/196193/large/Russia_MH17_Route_Map.jpg

            Russian Defense Ministry briefing map showing MH17 deviated off-course shortly before disappearing from radar.

            …Another interested party keeping a very close eye on what goes on in Ukraine is, of course, the all-seeing US national security state. In the course of presenting the first actual piece of evidence, the Russians also let it be known that they know a US military satellite happened to be directly overhead when the plane crashed, and “urged the US to publish the space photos and data captured by it.” As Robert Parry points out, the US could easily clarify who fired what and when by sharing this data. But they’re probably not going to do that if the only missile launcher in the area was Kiev-controlled, leaving you to wonder if that BUK wasn’t moved into place to serve as a decoy with which to blame the “Russian-backed separatists”. The Russian Defense Ministry’s point-by-point rebuttal – all provided with supporting evidence – of US and Ukrainian claims is concisely summarized in this Mashable.com article.

            Based on the known facts, I find this to be a more plausible scenario:
            A BUK launcher was positioned close to the Russian border by the Kiev forces
            A bomb was placed onboard the plane sometime before take-off

            Someone in Ukrainian Air Traffic Control instructed MH17 to fly along an alternate international air corridor to take it over the disputed territories of Donetsk and Lugansk

            The bomb was detonated remotely or via a timer

            ‘Facts’ were supplied to the Western media – via ‘special advisors’ to the Kiev junta and ‘anonymous intelligence officials’ – within minutes of the plane going down, emphasizing specifically that it was “shot down by a surface-to-air missile.”

            The tricky part is getting a bomb on board the plane. We all know how notoriously stringent airport security is, right? So let’s turn to MH17’s point of departure…


            Schiphol: Not Your Typical Airport

            Image

            1992 El Al cargo crash into an apartment complex in Bijlmer, Amsterdam.
            On Christmas Day 2009, the spaced-out 16-year-old son of a Nigerian banker – aka the ‘knicker-bomber’ – was escorted through check-in and security at Schiphol, without a passport, by “a well-dressed man in a suit”. Security at Schiphol is contracted to a very successful and privately-owned security firm by the name of International Consultants on Targeted Security (ICTS).

            Established in 1982 by former Shin Bet Israeli intelligence officers, ICTS’s hub at Schiphol is more than an airport security gig: it’s also home to ICTS’s corporate headquarters since the 1980s, from where it provides security services – including travel document verification and cargo screening – to airports in 11 countries, including the US and Western Europe. It also provides transport and network security to dozens of companies, transport hubs, and public agencies worldwide. In 1999, ICTS acquired Huntleigh USA, giving them responsibility for airport security at Boston Logan and Newark Airports. ICTS also handled security at Charles de Gaulle Airport when “shoe bomber” Richard Reid boarded a US-bound plane from Paris on December 22nd, 2001. The company also handled security for London’s bus network during the July 7, 2005, ‘suicide’ bomb attacks. In fact, two of its subsidiaries, ICTS UK and ICTS Europe Systems are based at Tavistock House, Tavistock Square in London, scene of the London Stagecoach bus bombing that day…’

            “I will never apologize for the United States – I don’t care what the facts are.”

            ~ US President George Bush Sr. when asked for his reaction to the US missile cruiser Vincennes shooting down an Iranian airliner and killing 290 civilians in 1988.

            https://www.sott.net/article/282575-Asymmetric-Warfare-MH17-False-Flag-Terror-and-the-War-on-Gaza

            …………………………..

            OSCE spokesperson: MH17 crash scene looks like a war zone… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qv0duUF1qM

          • Bruno Giordano

            Carlos’ tweets made sense for fans of fairy tales. Just like the ridiculous VT article. Period.

          • AM Hants

            You liked his tweets then?

      • Bruno Giordano

        Yeah, Van der Werff… How would he have gotten his hands on the “leaked” documents? What would these “Russian spies” who were caught red handed when they tried to break into the OPCW network in The Hague, back in 2018, have been doing else?

        Nah, Russian spies. That’s too much honour for these amateur James Bond’s. Looking at what Van der Werff “leaks”, he must be working for the JIT. Every document he “leaks” corroborates the evidence that the JIT (already) has for the crime committed by vacationing Russian amateurs. He does a good job, he certainly does.

        Oh, and by the way, it did take eight (8) days “for Ukraine to admit to taking out the Siberia to Israel flight”. Days, not years, hants. And at least they admitted something which was probably (not even 100% proven) their fault. After all, as you probably know, it happened during a joint exercise with the Russian army. Did Russia ever admit their “joint responsibility”? Do they ever admit doing anything wrong? “Good luck Russia”, yeah, good luck with your conscience. Keep trying.

        • AM Hants

          If the DSB and JIT were doing there job properly, investigative reporters would not be needing to the job of the plod.

          Why were aviation experts excluded, when they gave the job to PC Plod?

          How long will the records remain classified? Another 22 years or have they extended the 30 year, classified data for this fairy tale?

          Why on earth would they need to keep the true story secret? If there was nought to hide?

          • Bruno Giordano

            The “true story”, hants, is not kept “secret”. The trial that’s just started, is the best proof for that. And no, hants, aviation experts have not been excluded, not even Russian “aviation experts”

            https://tass.com/russia/742044

            And we know now, that some “aviation experts” that Russia added to the [crash] investigation team really had another goal….

            https://www.volkskrant.nl/kijkverder/v/2020/russische-manipulatie-en-sabotage-in-mh17-onderzoek~v335877/

            Keep trying. What’s next? Kolomoisky? Poor Voloshin? Carlos?

          • AM Hants

            So, if the ‘true story’ is open and above board, why did Ukraine demand everything had to be classified and why did they exclude NON-NATO Malaysia, who owned the aircraft, from the investigation?

            Will the Malaysian intelligence officer, who took the Black boxes, be allowed to speak?

            Will the autopsy reports on the pot and crew be made public?

            Why was there no forensic evidence on the shrapnel fragments from the exit and entry holes. Which would provide conclusive evidence as to whether it was an ‘air to air’ missile, ‘ground to air’ or mixture of both.

            Why did Kolomoiskys apologise for taking down wrong plane?

            Who were they expecting?

            Why did Voloshin return to his base with air to air missiles missing and saying the same as Koloimoisky, the oligarch in control of aviation and Air traffic control? The wrong plane was taken down.

            Why were the elderberry bushes in full bloom, when Belingcat, the Atlantic Council spin masters of choice, showed the video of the route the BUK took.

            Why did DSB and JIT ignore the evidence of the BUK manufacturers, who produced the BUK for the Soviet Union, Russia and Ukraine, so had nothing to lose, when representing facts, during the EU libel trial?

            Why did JIT fail to provide the missile passport details, when they presented the intact Soviet missile, which only Ukraine has stored, during the press conference. The missile still had it’s serial number on display.

            Why did Ukraine send the flight, through a war zone, demanding it lowered it’s flight path, when their had been international concerns raised, just a couple of days previously.?

            Why did the BBC delete the video with the witness statements?

            Will they be using the Murdoch channel documentary, shown over in Australia, where Strelkov and the Donetsk fighters stated somebody had taken down the civilian flight and they took down the military jets that were shadowing the plane, Israel style?

            Will they mention the tape, placed on You Tube, the night prior to the take down of MH17, and was proven to be three tapes merged together?

            Will they ask why Ukraine allowed passenger planes through her airspace, when there was no primary radar working?

            Will the US provide satellite data, considering the US satellite was actioned, at the time of the tragedy?

            Will NATO provide radar data, owing to the Breeze exercise finishing on that day. An exercise focused on air communication, which civilian pilots complained about. Owing to the exercise interfering in civilian aircraft communication. Remember, the US provided an Aegis Destroyer for the exercise?

            So many questions, so few answers and hope the relatives hear all sides of the story and facts are based on conclusive evidence.

          • Bruno Giordano

            Did Ukraine “demand”? How do you know?
            Did they exclude Malaysia? How do you know?
            Sure the “Malaysian intelligence officer” is allowed to speak. If necessary. But what additional evidence does he have to offer?
            For what purpose would autopsy reports made public?
            Is there no “forensic evidence on the shrapnel fragments from the exit and entry holes”? How do you know?
            Did Kolomoisky apologise or show empathy? Do you understand the difference?
            Did Voloshin admit anything? Who accused him?
            Is the Elderberry bush in that video in bloom? Can you prove that?
            Why did Russia make a TV show of the serial number issue?
            Did they hand over the original documents for forensic investigation. How can the production date of a missile be almost a year later than the delivery date? What happened to the stocks of missiles in annexed Crimea and Donbas?
            Did Ukraine “send the flight, through a war zone”? How do you know?
            Did Ukraine “demanding it lowered it’s flight path”? How do you know?
            What is the relevance of the deletion of a BBC video?
            Where are the remains of the downed military jets in the Murdoch documentary?
            Was there any (audio) tape placed on Youtube in the night prior to? How do you know it was the “night prior to”? Yes, no doubt they will discuss the intercepted telephone conversations. Yes, they have the complete recordings in the full context, not the excerpts that were uploaded to the web and were analysed by amateurs.

            No doubt “no primary radar working” will be discussed. But is it relevant for the murder case?
            The US had already shared the satellite data in Spring 2016.

            Does NATO have relevant radar data? How do you know? How far away was that Breeze exercise?

            So many leading questions, so much stupidity.

          • AM Hants

            Darling, groundhog day and remember those secretive deals that got leaked. Ended up common knowledge. Ukraine, Australia and Belgium, 5 ‘eye’ /NATO Members, all signed up to keep it classified. They could not trust Non- NATO Malaysia, whose Prime Minister’s mother in-law perished on the flight and had no reason to disbelieve Russia. They, the nation that owned the plane, wanted the truth, unlike the others. Malaysia came on board, 6 months later.

            Funny, how a new Malaysian Government, does not want the officer who of the Black boxes to testify? Why would the new Government not be interested in the truth behind MH17 and MH370?

          • Bruno Giordano

            Of course, groundhog day. In your animal farm. “Secretive deals”? Or do you mean that very logical and reasonable non-disclosure agreement for the JIT members? That’s ended now, hants, it’s in court, as you know. Except for additional investigations by the JIT of course. Then again until that’s also in court. Nothing secretive there. Perhaps for some witnesses that need protection as your brave miners and farmers and their big protector are not very kind to them – to put it mildly. Remind me, hants, why was this Ukrainian man, Tsemakh, so important for Russia that they insisted him to be part of the swap deal? And why did Russia then ignore the extradition request? And all that lying. Funny behaviour for an “innocent” state isn’t it? Malaysia came on board of the criminal investigation when they had time and capacity. There was that other problematic flight, remember?

          • AM Hants

            So if it has ended, why are JIT stating they have the witness statements, but, owing to classified information can not state who provided the evide nce.

            Anyway, why is case adjourned?

            Did not realise George Orwell wrote Groundhog Day.

            ‘All animals are equal, just some more equal than others’ – repeat, repeat, repeat.

          • Bruno Giordano

            Not Orwell’s farm. Yours. Like I said. Who pushed the button.

          • AM Hants

            Who pushed the button? Do you mean the Ukrainian pilot, who flicked the switch, that sent his ‘air to air’ missiles into the MH17?

            Do you mean the air traffic control operative, in charge of the MH17, who was never interviewed and went on vacation the following day, never to return? What button would she have pushed on her control panel?

            Do you mean Igor Koloimoisky, the igarch in control of Ukraine aviation and Air traffic control? Who apologised for taking out the wrong plane. Which button would he have pushed?

            Do you mean Belingcat, when they uoaded the 3 merged videos, talking about the MH17, the night before it happened? Which button would he have pulled?

          • Bruno Giordano

            Now that is a dumb comment. Groundhog.

          • AM Hants

            Yes, I seriously agree, you did post yet, another dumb comment.

          • goingbrokes

            What an AH.

          • AM Hants

            By the way, why have they adjourned the case?

            Reminds me of the woman, who found the bottle of ‘Eue de Novochok’, who had chronic health problems, owing to substance abuse. The only person to die from military grade nerve agents, that the Russians were allegedly using in Salisbury/Porton Down location. So handy, that the first person on the scene when the Skripals took the Russian military strength nerve agent hit, was a Senior Army Dr from Porton Down. Funny, how those who had access to the Skripals, post poisoning, never had any health problems? Sorry, as I ramble. Going back to Dawn Sturgess, why did they keep postponing the coroner’s investigation? How difficult is it to provide a report based on a toxicology report, so the inquest can go ahead? How many times has her inquest been adjourned and why?

            So why, has JIT had to adjourn the investigation? Surely they have everything needed?

            Plus, why, almost 6 years later have the Dutch still not finished their report into MH17, if it was so clearcut?

          • Bruno Giordano

            Find the idiots that pushed the button.

          • AM Hants

            Button? So are you saying it was a button that took out the MH17? Or are you saying they adjourned the case, because the judge had lost a button?

          • AM Hants

            So are the Air Accidents Investigation Branch in control or PC Plod, working for JIT? How does that work?

          • Bruno Giordano

            The groundhogs are not very bright today. There was a technical [crash] investigation, hants, led by the DSB, that published a final report in October 2015. Russian aviation “experts” participated in that (I put that word between quotes as we know now that not all of them were there to provide technical input…). That investigation was fully in accordance with what ICAO expects of such investigations. Task and scope were not the “whodunnit” part. For that there is this criminal investigation, done by the JIT. They don’t need input from “aviation experts”, hants. They need work done by police and legal experts. You know, magnifying glasses, taking finger prints, that stuff. They need input from other parties when these are asked for it, in the form of a request for legal assistance. They definitely don’t need the participation from a state that has (a) no logical role in the investigation, as it is not the state where it happened, not the owner of the airplane, had no citizens on board, did not manufacture the plane, and (b) that’s doing everything it can to obstruct the investigations.

          • AM Hants

            So an aviation disaster does not need an team of ‘aviation accident investigators’ to investigate, but, just a team of your average policemen, with no aviation experience?

            Remind me, but when we’re JIT, who have their offices in the Ukraine Intelligence Service building. The same building the CIA share a floor and the same building the DSB share an office?

            Why is that, when suspicion was cast on the actions of Ukraine?

            Why did the DSB ignore all evidence Russia sent them? Would it have been sent to their office in the SBU building?

          • AM Hants

            Reading your comment again, but, with regards the numerous comments from you, over the years, whatever name you choose to use on the day, remind me, but, didn’t you use to Whinge, wail and whine, because Russia had not provided their primary radar data? Ignoring the fact Russia was a sovereign nation, not part of Ukraine. They held onto the data during the timescale required for a uninvolved nation?

    • JIMI JAMES

      Because they rather murdered him?
      30-32mm rounds fired from south westerly direction,all the proof I ever gonna need:

  • AM Hants

    Over on the Daily Mail, somebody is spending a lot of money on media disinformation trolls. I wonder if Bill Browder and his Integrity Initiative/Common Purpose mates are behind the funding od the trolls?

    Remember the polonium trial, led by a Coroner with no legal expertise, to handle the investigation? The Russian double agent, who was represented by Timothy Bell’s Bell Pottinger, PR Management Company. The same Bell Pottinger, who received &$500 million, from the Pentagon, to spin the Iraq War. Brother David Bell, who founded Common Purpose and Heads The Media Standards Committee. Why do so many MPs and Prime Ministers become Common Purpose, Shadow Government Members? Anyway, going back to the Coroner leading the polonium trial, since when did ‘PRIBABLY’ become an official verdict in a court of law?

    Wish Max Van Der Werrf all the best, getting an unbiased court to hear his evidence.

    Why does ‘Queen of Hearts’ ‘Sentence First, Verdict Later’ so come to mind, together with timing?

    Coronovirus
    Russia says no to OPEC
    Russia says no to Erdogan
    Soros/NED and NGO friends, expecting Turkey to send everybody and the dog to Christian Orthodox Greece, in their quest to remove the Orthodox faith, from the planet.
    US ruuning out of money, to pay the bills.
    NATO 2020 Defender Exercise, but, will the C Virus cancel it?

    • jm74

      Be even more interesting if China decides to cash in on the US Treasury securities.

    • FlorianGeyer

      ” when did ‘PROBABLY’ become an official verdict in a court of law?”

      Its Highly Likely that it has always been that way in ‘special cases’, AM.

  • jm74

    MH17, Assange court hearing, same BS in different countries.

  • Dick Von Dast’Ard

    It’s like the Douma OPCW stich up, but with air hoaxes this time.

    • AM Hants

      Same crowd.

      Who funds the White Helmets?

      Which Ukrainian Oligarch gave the Clinton Foundation over “$25 million?

      Why do Burisma Holdings and Sorass Open Society Foundation donate to the Atlantic Council Think Tank, that controls NATO?

      Why are so many Sorass funded and Clinton Foundation aligned politicians, not just American, members of Burisma Holdings?

      Wasn’t Burisma Holdings, part of the Privett Group stable, that used to be part of Kolomoisky’s Empire?

      Why does it all come back to Bill Browder and his Integrity Initiative colleagues, funded by the UK tax payer, courtesy the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Offices?

      Why does the crowd behind ‘Russia Gate–Steele Dossier – Skripals – White Helmets – various colour based revolutiins’ also link into the MH17 tragedy and false flag.

      Browder and how many of his late Russian friends in exile, were represented by Timothy Bell’s ‘Bell Pottinger’ Group, that were paid over $500 million, to spin the Iraq War. Why are so many UK politicians, in lauding PM level, members of Timothy Bell’s brother David’s Common Purpose Shadow Government? Why does the founder of the UK Shadow Government also Head the Media Standards Committee?

  • Dick Von Dast’Ard

    So let’s get this straight, the wife murderer (whose bad cop boss is investigating him) left fragments of a weapon behind at the crime scene that has his address and name labelled upon it and then investigators (bad cops) go to the house number next door and then blames them.

    Bent bad cops!

    • AM Hants

      Not forgetting the audit trail of the BUK missile Ukraine paraded at the press conference, also had it’s own passport. Which provided the audit trail, of the Soviet BUK that was Ukrainian property, since the 80s.

  • Veritas Vincit

    Lawfare (‘a form of war consisting of the use of the legal system against an enemy, such as by damaging or delegitimizing them’ [source: wikipedia]) is a component of broader active hybrid warfare operations (information warfare, economic warfare, destabilisation/partition/’regime change’ operations, etc.).

    Evidence presented by the Russian Federation has disproven (politicised) JIT report findings (Note: Certain evidence such as eyewitness statements/accounts, Russian military data and missile manufacturer investigations, penetrations indicating (aviation) 30mm calibre anti-aircraft guns employed not Buk projectiles, etc., was excluded).

    By the selective approach (involving the application of political method [conclusion is established first, interpretation/selection of ‘evidence’ is made to fit this conclusion, for example as applied to accuse Iraq of having WMDs] over scientific method [facts determine conclusions]), it is clear assignment of blame was pre-determined. But it would be naive to expect a different approach in the current adversarial context. Consistent with a their pollicised approach, Western MSM has dismissed this evidence and continues to engage in an information campaign advocating the prosecution of Russians. The politicised nature of this campaign is also clear when compared to Western bloc response to the US downing of a civilian passenger jet (Iran flight 655). Western bloc calls for prosecutions, sanctions and demands for reparations contrast significantly with the response towards the US that actually downed Flight 655. US servicemen involved were given military awards:

    – “the 290 innocent Iranians [Iranian Air Flight 655] murdered by the crew of the USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988…… the USA refused to apologize, the entire crew received Combat Action Ribbons “for completion of their tours in a combat zone”. The air-warfare coordinator on duty received the Navy Commendation Medal, while the Vincennes’ captain, William C. Rogers III, was awarded the Legion of Merit “for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ….” (We Will Resist, Saker, August 23, 2016).

    Those who accuse the Russian Federation of guilt are ignorant of evidence provided that disproves JIT report findings. Such accusations are therefore merely based in prejudice/bigotry. This unfortunately is to be expected as many continue to have their prejudices/bigotries reinforced by Western bloc media narratives.

    Similarly, it is worth comparing the response of many Western bloc officials who in effect applauded the downing of the Russian Metrojet Flight 9268 by terrorists:

    – UK Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond: “We’ll see whether the Russians now double down or whether they decide that they never wanted to be too deeply engaged anyway in Syria and that this is a warning shot to them.”

    – “Imagine the outcry if Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov had described an attack on a plane carrying UK holidaymakers in the same, disgusting way.” (Plane Wrong Blame Game: How attacks on Iranian & Russian airliners are forgotten, Neil Clark, 10 Jan, 2020).

    Of course, the anti-Russian behaviour by many in the Western bloc is consistent with the application of such prejudice in broader issues. The Western bloc behaviour is not only politicised but corrupt and criminally seeks to pervert justice.

    • Veritas Vincit

      p2. It is worth noting various data provided by the Russian Federation (particularly military data and missile manufacturer data) disproves the (politicised) JIT report.
      As well summarised: “The published photos [from the MH17 crash site] enable to assume that the Boeing was downed by a military jet. Besides that, the existing damage indicates that the airplane was shot with air-to-air missiles together with an aircraft gun with a 30mm caliber,” [Lieutenant General Aleksandr] Maslov [former deputy chief of the Russian Air Defense and Land Forces] said…… Claims that the passenger plane was downed by a surface-to-air Buk missile “cannot be supported,” as the nature of the damage from the missiles is different, he added….. If the plane was downed by Buk [missile defense system], it would have almost immediately fallen to pieces in the air and we could not have witnessed such large debris on the ground….. You can’t fire Buk missile in broad daylight with no witnesses….. if this were a Buk missile, the contrail would have been seen for 50 miles [80km]. The contrail itself would have been photographed by thousands of people; it would have been on Instagram, on Twitter, it would have been all over YouTube – and no one saw it.” (Duff on RT: Could SU-25 fighter jet down a Boeing? Former pilots speak out on MH17 claims, By Gordon Duff, VT, September 28, 2016)
      Various Western based investigators have similarly provided evidence that is incompatible with the JIT report. For example:

      – “A new report has recently been released however, that has shed considerable light on what really happened……. That this report, with its devastating revelations, has not been reported in the western mainstream media confirms that rather than being an inquiry into the truth about a tragedy, the investigation always had as a primary objective, to blame Russia……. the Dutch Military Intelligence Service carried out its investigation into the circumstances surrounding the crash. Their investigation produced a report that has been leaked to the van der Werff investigation team…..

      ……. The report of the Dutch military investigation team (MIVD) quoted by van der Werff confirms that there were no Russian BUK missiles or radar systems in Ukraine on or about 17 July 2014. The Dutch report further confirmed that no BUK missiles were detected as having been fired on that day. Nor had anything been fired from the Russian side of the border. This information was consistent with data obtained by two Australian investigators, Shaun Ellis and Timothy Johns, conducting an inquiry under the code name “Operation Arkanella”. None of these findings, which clearly contradict the allegations of Russian responsibility, have ever been published in the western mainstream media….. This report was published on 21 September 2016, i.e. more than three years ago. Not a word of it has been published by the western media who persist in their “blame Russia” version…….

      ……. When one adds together the known facts revealed in the Dutch documents as well as other sources, certain irresistible inferences can be drawn. The most obvious is that MH 17 was shot down by a Ukrainian fighter jet. That single fact, from which so much else followed, has never been reported in the mainstream media despite it being the irresistible inference drawn by Dutch investigators more than three years ago. That the suppression of the truth has been a major factor in the anti-Russian campaign waged by the Netherlands, Australia and Ukraine is obvious. That the lies, obfuscations and misinformation should be perpetrated by the mainstream media is a sad commentary on the deplorable state of affairs that media has now sunk to.” (Some Emerging Truths About Ukraine and the Crash of MH17, James ONeill [Barrister at law], 02/03/2020)

      Related reports:
      -‘Ukraine pilot reveals Kiev plane shot down MH-17 – full transcript’, December 23, 2014

      -‘Ukrainian Combat Jet Returned Without Missiles After MH17 Crash: Reports’, 23/12/2014

      -‘US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft’, 7 August 2014

      -‘Russia’s Channel One show satellite photo evidencing MH17 was downed by fighter jet’, November 14, 2014;

      Conclusion
      The US-NATO-allied bloc has engaged in wars of aggression against successive nations in violation of International Law. It has waged proxy warfare operations involving the support of groups listed as terrorist organisations (replicating the format of Operation Cyclone). This block is responsible for policies and actions of collective punishment that have resulted in mass deaths conforming to genocide:

      – “Between 1 million and 1.5 million Iraqis have died from malnutrition or inadequate health care resulting from economic sanctions, said Halliday…… the United Nations Security Council member states … are maintaining a program of economic sanctions deliberately, knowingly killing thousands of Iraqis each month. And that definition fits genocide,” Halliday said.” (Former UN official says sanctions against Iraq amount to ‘genocide’, By Mark Siegal, Cornell University Chronicle, October 1, 1999)

      It is not credible for this bloc to seek to prosecute (innocent) Russians (as established by evidence presented by the Russian Federation) when this bloc has and continues to commit gross violations of International Law and indeed crimes against humanity:

      – “Signs of starvation and death in North Korea indicate that US diplomatic strategy works fine, says the secretary of state…. “over a 100 North Korean fishing boats that have drifted into Japanese waters. Two-thirds of the people on those boats have died,” Tillerson said….. “[The North Korean fishermen] are being sent in the wintertime to fish because there are food shortages. And they are being sent out to fish with inadequate fuel to get back. So we are getting a lot of evidence that these [sanctions] are really starting to hurt.” (Dying North Koreans a sign US diplomatic strategy works, Tillerson says, RT, 19 Jan, 2018)

      They will have their Kangaroo Court (appropriate for the Australians) which only makes a mockery of those who claim to pursue justice. In the end history is likely to be unfavourable to them.

    • JIMI JAMES

      I knew it,wasn’t sure if they were 30 or 32mm,hard to tell from the photo,ok 30mm so be it!
      Bulk missile was a farce,i am surprised how many even attempted to defend against that lie,was it msm garbage,because the fact remains,green/corroded ammo was fired from south westerly direction,and many a holes at the rear of the cockpit to me substantiates more than enough
      to disable both pilots (period) Also official Australian commonwealth feds comfirmed 100% no evidence russia did the hit (period) Amazingly the media and back then soros run governments
      persist to ignore the hard facts,which is why there was no official summons to russia but rather mock up variants empowered by all kinds of cia/soro/media hype,which to date has been put to shame,conversely Australian government did recieve compensation to familys from malaysian airlines,however they whom chose to ignore the hard facts siding with that cia homosexual liar
      got absolutely nothing because they chose to entrust justice to the kweer not the ozi feds!

  • Hasbara Hunter

    QUESTION:

    WHAT IS A PASSENGER-AIRLINER DOING IN A WAR-ZONE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

    No one has answered that yet…..flying over War-Zones is asking for troubles in my humble opinion…

    • JIMI JAMES

      Prominent german civil aviation barrister,confirmed in effect 100% ukranian governments fault:
      As to the answer to your question? decoup,soros,cia,neo-liberal,criminal cables plan:
      Frame it on Russia,if not blame it on soviet rebels,too easy.So they assumed back then:

      • Hasbara Hunter

        Here are some other Narratives on the subject…Bellingcat is CIA…Holland is following the Bellingcat-Propaganda…so are the Dutch….Russia was guilty before the Trial even started….

        REMEMBER THE SKRIPALS

        https://southfront.org/eric-zuesse-mh17-turnabout-ukraines-guilt-now-proven/

        http://www.investmentwatchblog.com/new-mh17-sensation-german-experts-point-finger-at-ukrainian-air-force-jets/

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5517517/Pilot-blamed-Moscow-shooting-Flight-MH17-dead.html

        My own opinion is that MH-17 was initially shot by a Ukrainian SU-25 using an Israeli Python air-to-air missile, likely the radar guided model which specifically targets the cockpit of large aircraft, and then finished off by the SU-25’s 30mm cannon. My reasons, based on “known knowns” as Donald Rumsfeld once said:
        In the early 2000’s several Ukrainian SU-25’s were fitted to carry Israeli Python air-to-air missiles, which have a warhead of around 15kg. A BUK warhead is about 75kg. The Dutch commission claimed the warhead size to be around 30kg. The Python missile has software which specifically targets the cockpit of large aircraft, which is exactly where MH-17 was hit.
        The damage to the cockpit area shows both entry and exit holes on the same side of the same pieces of fuselage, something that cannot result from a single missile warhead exploding on only one side of the aircraft. The projectiles had to come from both sides, meaning there had to be two missiles and/or another source of projectiles such as a cannon or machine gun. That rules out a single BUK missile.
        A BUK missile has a solid fuel rocket motor that leaves a long straight white SMOKE – not quickly evaporating vapour as a liquid fuel rocket motor – trail that remains clearly visible for around 15 minutes before dispersing. It was a clear day with scattered clouds and little wind to disperse the smoke trail, yet not a single witness I am aware of claims to have seen such an obvious smoke trail that day, much less one pointing up to the location where the airliner was hit and exploded.
        Several independent local eyewitnesses interviewed immediately after the shoot down claimed to have seen a small aircraft following MH-17 just before the explosion, and watched the small aircraft follow MH-17 down for some distance before flying off to the west. None of them claimed to have seen a missile vapour trail.
        Russian radar tracking allegedly showed a second small aircraft following MH-17 immediately before it was shot down. They identified this aircraft as an SU-25, but did not give details as to how they knew what type of aircraft it was. Military aircraft on a mission normally have their identification transponders turned off.
        For Ukraine using a Mig-29 or SU-27 dedicated air superiority fighter would have been an obvious give-away. Too much chance of somebody seeing it take off or land, or having Russian military radar watching it wondering what it was doing over Donetsk when the DPR had no military aircraft. But using an SU-25 would be low profile since the Ukrainian Air Force was attacking the LPR and DPR with SU-25s every day at that point of the war. The SU-25 pilot need only be supplied with a small portable oxygen tank and mask that would last about 15 minutes to do the job. The plane can climb well over 10,000 metres as long as the pilot has an oxygen supply.
        The test done by the Russian manufacturer of the BUK missile systems on the very similar cockpit of a decommissioned IL-86 airliner which exploded a BUK warhead exactly where the Dutch commission claimed it was, based on the shrapnel pattern, showed quite a different shrapnel pattern and more extensive damage as you would expect from the much larger BUK warhead. The Dutch commission refused to attend or send an observer to the BUK warhead demonstration test.
        Anyone looking at the photos of the wreckage in the first few days before anything had been moved, as I did, in particular the large piece below the pilot’s window, could clearly see that there were many small irregular shaped inward bent holes around the port side cockpit skin from shrapnel, presumably from a missile warhead exploding just off the port side of the cockpit, and a smaller number of larger round holes of about 30mm diameter, some flared outward, apparently originating from a machine gun located to the starboard side of the MH-17’s cockpit. This corresponds to the cannon shell holes in the port wing which came from ahead of the plane, likely fired by the trailing SU-25 as MH-17 turned to starboard after the initial missile hit, exposing it’s starboard cockpit side to a following aircraft. Any stray bullets would be coming from ahead and to starboard, hitting the port wing after passing through the cockpit or fuselage.
        In short, a SU-25 was chosen for the job because it would blend in with the other attacking SU-25s over Donetsk, and because it would be difficult to explain why the Ukrainian Air Force had a Mig-29 or SU-27 in the vicinity of MH-17 on that day. An air-to-air missile was used for the initial hit on the cockpit, and the SU-25 finished MH-17 off with it’s cannon as the airliner made a starboard turn back toward Kiev, whether under the control of a still living pilot or or not.
        The shoot down only occurred over the DPR because the Kiev Air Traffic Control redirected MH-17 from its normal route over the Sea of Azov and ordered them to overfly an active war zone. No valid reason has ever been provided by Kiev for ordering this unusual change in flight plan, and the cockpit voice recorder tape which would reveal what the MH-17 pilots said about it between themselves, if anything, has never been made public.
        There were many reasons for the shoot down. Israel needed a big story to cover its planned massive assault on Gaza which started only a few hours later, killing thousands over a couple of weeks, and went virtually unreported as all the media coverage was about MH-17.
        The CIA and USA wanted payback against Malaysia for hosting the War Crimes Tribunal that indicted the Bush regime and Israel for starting wars of aggression in Iraq and Gaza.
        Poroshenko needed to get the LPR and DPR self-defence militias certified as “Terrorists” because that would automatically kick in laws in most Western countries making it illegal for anyone to support or aid them in any way.
        The US State Department, CIA, and their “allies” in the Western governments needed a pretext to start a new cold war with Russia that would enable them to start shovelling truck loads of money into their military industrial complexes without any questions or opposition in their various parliaments.
        In short, it was a multipurpose False Flag that fitted many agendas….

        • AM Hants

          Veteran’s Today mentioned the Israel Python Missiles, many years ago, in their brilliant MH17 articles.

          • Hasbara Hunter

            This whole case stinks….I personally think Russia should send a strong delegation to prove their Innocence…

          • AM Hants

            I am English and beyond disgusted with Westminster, all parties and the Shadow Government, who control their actions.

            Seriously hope the truth gets some attention, over in the Disney inspired Court House.

          • Hasbara Hunter

            Peoples are slowly waking up these days & start seeing the True Evil at the top of the Pyramid…The Demonic Elitist Top of the Pyramid must be very nervous & have some sleepless nights at the moment…They know that some day soon Men armed with Pitchforks & Torches might come Knockin’ at their doors…and Reclaim what is rightfully theirs….

          • AM Hants

            Wish the masses would wake up and get out those ‘pitchforks and torches’. Although, it took me until events in Ukraine, to wake up, back in 2014.

        • AM Hants

          Do you rember, prior to July 2014, the ceiling zone of the SU 25 was around 30,000′. After MH17, so ceiling zone in many Internet based articles was reduced. However, with oxygen and various updates, the Su25 had a ceiling zone of over 30’000.

          Why did air traffic control demand the MH17 lower her path, so that she would flying at the same height of a military jet shadowing her, Israel style?

    • AM Hants

      Aren’t the German relatives suing Ukraine, for that specific reason.

      Montreux Air Convention – which states the nation when an aircraft enters their airspace, is responsible for safety of aircraft, passengers and crew. There were raised and publicly stated concerns, just a few days prior to MH17 of Ukrainian air safety, in the war zone, owing to Ukraine losing so many military aircrafts, during the civil war.

      • Bruno Giordano

        Montreux??? LMAO. Perhaps you mean Montreal. But that convention is about compensation for the victims of air disasters by the carrier (or negligent third parties for damage from a certain amount).

        • AM Hants

          Sorry, always muddle Montreux 1936 Treaty concerning Turkey and the Black Sea, with the aiway treaty.

          Just based on compensation, is it? So there is nothing that claims that the nation whose airspace a plane uses, is not responsible for the safety of plane, crew and passengers’.

          Now if a nation sent a plane through a war zone, what convention would cover the compensation claims for the crew, passengers and airline?

          • Bruno Giordano

            I think ICAO Annex 11 document covers this, but that is about guidelines and recommendations. I have found no laws particularly specifying what must work. It is known that in this particular situation secundary radar was working and that is considered to be adequate for proper atc.

            Plenty ICAO Annex 11 info can be found on the web.
            This document is also quite informative:
            https://www.unitingaviation.com/publications/10084/#page=1

          • AM Hants

            You have found no laws. Yet, what is the reason for the German lawsuit against Ukraine? Is it not owing to the fact Ukraine sent the MH17 into a war zone, in violation of aviation safety regulations, which specify that ‘when a plane enters a nations airspace, the nation is responsible for flight, crew, plane and passenger safety’.

            The fact that the international community were pointing out the facts to Ukraine, just a couple of days prior to the MH17 being taken out, transmitting Ukraine Airspace, raised a lot of concerns. So many military planes, prior to 17 July 2014 were being taken out, so why was Ukraine Air Traffic Control sending civilian planes through War Zones. Even the old DSB report highlighted that precise fact. One of the few things it did actually notice.

          • Bruno Giordano

            No, that is for not fully closing the airspace, i.e. from the ground up to infinite altitude, taking the risk that a civilian airliner could be hit with powerful weapons [in irresponsible hands] that were prior to the 17th not available, or operational. But they have yet to find evidence that Ukrainian authorities had the knowledge – a powerful air defense weapon, capable of hitting targets above the restricted altitude in the area – on which such a decision – fully closing the airspace – would have to be taken. Giemulla’s case takes an awful lot of time, doesn’t it? It seems Skinner’s case against the RF is more successful.

          • AM Hants

            What is the reason that the German Relatives are taking Ukraine to court, with regards sending the airline via a warzone?

          • Bruno Giordano

            1. Check Giemulla
            2. Read what I wrote.

          • AM Hants

            Prefer to listen to the prosecution team, when it all goes to trial.

    • Bruno Giordano

      It wasn’t in a war zone”, Merijn. It was flying over a war zone. And it was flying at an altitude that was thought and declared safe, as the war in that war zone was in fact a war on the ground. And even military airplanes that were flying under that altitude were only supporting groups on the ground, or attacking targets on the ground. Nobody, except for the perpetrators of course, expected the use of a powerful air defense systems that could hit civilian airliners flying at their cruising altitudes above 32,000 ft. And a civilian airliner is easily identifiable, as it continuously tells about itself through a transponder that even hobbyists can listen to with relatively simple equipment.Everything points in the direction of haste, incompetence and panic for the “bird” coming in their direction.

      • Hasbara Hunter

        The Dutch Lawyers defending them Russians obviously took my advise….they will ask why the Ukraine had not closed its Airspace in that area…The Dutch Prosecutor immediately tried to ward it off & said that this was not relevant for the case….I think it is of utmost importance…

        WHAT WAS MH-17 DOING IN THAT AREA? AND WAS IT REDIRECTED OVER THE AREA BY A UKRANIAN AIR-TRAFFICK CONTROLLER…

        • Bruno Giordano

          The point is, Merijn, it was closed. From the ground up to 32,000 ft. Did the authorities, responsible for the Ukrainian air space, know that a more powerful air defense weapon [than what was used until the 17th] had become available in the war zone and would be used, that is the question.

          And no, MH17 was not “redirected over the area”. This can easily be seen if you read Malaysia Airlines’ flight plan for that day. The crash occurred only a few kilometers away from the track in that flight plan. A further indication is that a Singapore Airlines flight (SIA351) was just two minutes behind MH17 and about to fly over the point where MH17 was hit. Nobody has questioned if that flight was “redirected” either. And, if you want more proof, an Air India flight, coming from the opposite direction (ie Russia), would also fly over that very same point just a few minutes later.

          • AM Hants

            ‘oh yes it was’. Remember the flight paths, before and after, and the discrepancies in the edited versions.

            Do believe the Patrick Heningsen/21st Century Wire ‘1 Year After MH17’ shows the before and after flight path information.

            Together with the facts, Ukraine ordered the plane to not only divert, but, also lower her flight path. Funny how it was lowered to the same height as an upgraded Su25, flown by a pilot with oxygen assistance. Now how many Su25 upgrades did Ukraine have, which could also accommodate ‘Israel Python Missiles’?

            What did the Ukraine pilot, flying the Su25, with air to air missiles say when he returned to base, minus his missiles?

            Was it not the same as Koloimoisky, the Ukraine oligarch, in control of aviation and Air traffic control.?

            ‘sorry, but, the wrong plane was taken down’.

            Whose plane, similar colouring, similar radar image, were they expecting?

            BBC deleted video, with witness statements, discussing the military jets, shadowing MH17, Israel style.

            Strelkov, Murdoch’s Australian Channel showed a documentary, relating to MH17, where Strelkov states, ‘somebody took down passenger plane and they took down two military jets’.

            When you look into flights taken down in Ukraine in 2014, did they not highlight the military jets, but, recorded the following day, in the area that the witness statements highlighted?

          • Bruno Giordano

            Oh no, it was not. “Your flight paths” are wrong.I believe I have told you a zillion times. They are based on the output from a tracking system – Flightaware – that had no coverage in Ukraine (and Russia). That is even corroborated by the warning line at the bottom of the plots in Henningsen’s nonsense article. The output from a tracking system that did have coverage – Flightradar24 – tells that earlier routes were not significantly different. All this deviation nonsense was instigated by a comment in the July 21st Russian MoD press conference where they showed a stupid wrong “suspicious deviation” that was silently corrected when the showed their new radar output in Fall 2026. Anyway, these tracking results are irrelevant. What is relevant is Malaysia Airlines’ flight plan. That is the real fact in this discussion. It is made by them, filed by them, and used for the flight and air traffic control. It clearly tells which tracks MH17 should follow and at which altitudes. For the relevant part it was supposed to be flying in airway L980. And it was flying there indeed – up to the point, within the borders of that airway, where it was fatally hit. The distance between the co-ordinates of that position and the planned track (centerline of L980) is just a few kilometers. Facts.

            I’ll ignore the other nonsense re Kolomoisky, Murdoch, deleted video’s, and other BS. See my earlier comment in this thread, replying to your leading questions list.

          • AM Hants

            Darling, since when have I ever listened to you?

            Why did they edit the flight paths, after MH17?

          • Bruno Giordano

            I know you don’t “listen”, but other people hopefully do and may start to think and wonder if all these alt media articles and fantasies that you and your friends promote, could be less reliable than they had been thinking.

            I know nothing about “edit the flight paths” (why would anybody want to do that – and is it even possible), but I do know that the flight paths – edited or not and from whatever flight tracking system – are irrelevant. What is relevant is Malaysia Airlines’ flight plan. It’s an undeniable fact.

          • AM Hants

            Haha, as I find myself seriously laughing. As you virtually repeat me words, used over the last 6 years, with regards why I reply to trolls. Only my words were:

            ‘for others, who might read the comments, to go away and make up their own, informed minds, after finding out more, whether they do or do not agree, they have arrived at their conclusion, owing to looking into the subject’.

            So, I have absolutely no problems using the comments section, to do the same. I so love informed minds, rather than those which are curiosity zero.

      • AM Hants

        Is that why the International Community, just a couple of days prior to the incident were raising concerns, with regards Ukraine sending planes through War Zones. Highlighting the fact so many military planes had been taken out. In fact, was it a couple of days prior to MH17, that the Cargo plane was taken out in the Ukrainian war zone?

        • Bruno Giordano

          Then, apparently, “the International Community” did not raise their concerns sufficiently, or loud enough. Hundreds of planes took that route in the next days. Remember flight SIA351, just two minutes after MH17?

  • Christian S

    Another showtrial: ZOG entity tries to hide truth but this what we found: crashsite build on fundaments of hangars that have been removed before crash accordin satellite imagines, first locals vid evidence shows bodies without blood, mostly asians with passports stamps dating from mh370 time period. Finding answers look into zionist maffia mofaz family , pentagon2000 and GA Telesis. Changin registration numbers and swap planes for demolition is just one way to deceive the public frim this crime.Wreckage in ukraine is mh370, mh17 whereabouts still unknown and seems all parties are involved in this mess .

  • AM Hants

    With the defense t’s refusing to turn up, and wise choice, in my opinion. Will there still be a defence team, supporting them? Forcing evidence and truth into the public domain?

  • St. Augustine

    Interview with Igor Strelkov (Igor Girkin)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYouKFYc2jE

  • TomWonacott

    If there was ever a case in international law where the evidence was more overwhelming that a Russian-supplied Buk anti-missile system brought down MH17, it occurred at the Hague after WWII. Russia has denied a Buk missile system was in Eastern Ukraine at the time MH17 was shot down. However, social media photographs and video, satellite photos (where Starfor identified the Buk system in route in Eastern Ukraine) and witnesses clearly prove a Russian Buk missile system on the way to its unfortunate intersection with the murder of 298 people. Even a separatists commander acknowledged that the separatists had a Buk missile system (Exclusive: Ukraine rebel commander acknowledges fighters had BUK… http://reut.rs/1rBtaFg):

    In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

    Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists’ main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.

    Since the airliner crashed with the loss of all 298 on board, the most contentious issue has been who fired the missile that brought the jet down in an area where government forces are fighting pro-Russian rebels.

    Here is an exert from “Putin. War” by Boris Nemtsov which again demonstrates that the Buk missile was in possession of the separatists:

    Not long before the plane crash, the Kremlin media 107 — NTV, Rossiya-24 and others — informed the Russian audience that a Buk anti-aircraft system had been spotted in the possession of the Donbass fighters. Specifically, in an interview with Reuters, Aleksandr Khodakovsky, one of the separatist leaders, said this. The next day, Khodakovsky said that he had said no such thing.Reuters was forced to 108 publish the audiotape which confirmed the separatist’s statement: fighters in the Donbass really did have the Buk complexes in their possession.

    Nemtsov was murdered by the Russian government for exposing the truth about Russian military involvement in Ukraine – including the shootdown of MH17.

  • caonabo

    Answer me this:How come that the photograph taken of MH-17 just before take-off from Schiphol,and published next day by Reuters Agency,was authored by an Israeli guy who happens to be technical director of an Israeli firm working in the field of electronic warfare on behalf of the american military,and by the name of “Pentagon 2000”?Sheer luck ?
    Also a bunch of images of dutch passports with a tiny whole in the corner so as to wear them on a string ,and dispersed in allegedly ukranian fields,that I found the next day on the internet,but never found again,made me believe at the time that the downed plane was in fact MH 370 disappeared months before.A canadian-ukanian first responder working for OCDE said there were mostly asiatic bodies,and a strong smell of formol.Explain me this also.
    If that’s the case,the hundres of thousands of dutch people watching and mourning the repatriation of corpses in a long and much televized journey,was a scam schemed to provide un undestroyable boiling emotion experience to the poor misled public,who still vote for the criminals that are supposed to rule them.This Rutte-guy,who likes his ass filled in gay backrooms,and has no children,like so many other world leaders,I think he needs to dangle in the wind from a lamppost.

    • Christian S

      Anna news has a vid of first locals who got to crashsite, no blood and most asians, timestamps in passports date 2014, they must have shot down mh370 or placed wreckage on area which has fundaments of hangars that have been removed earlier. Mofaz ( israeli s ) which used companies pentagon2000 and ga telesis must have messed with registration codes of planes at the time, this is one big operation in hoaxin the ppl from truth

      • pcat

        The MH370 western narrative is usually about the pilot suicide; but never addresses the efforts and expertise used to make the plane disappear: re-routing in between two ATC zones, and disabled transponder is more in line with a carefully executed hijacking. If the pilot wanted to commit suicide, why bother with the stealthy route change? Also, I remember some french investigator reported intimidation after looking into diego garcia after reports by maldivian witnesses of sightseeing a large airliner that could have matched MH370.

        • Christian S

          indeed, civilian airliner was sighted near Diego Garcia.It could easily end up in a hijack process after which it can either be dismantle ( GA Telesis known for dismantle planes Malaysia airlines ) or probably be stored and change registration numbers.The israelis had to publish photo to reuters as one of the passengers took photo of MH17 plane before take off in where u can see different code on plane RC , the Israelis changed it in RD.

          • caonabo

            Yes,Christian,I remember that.The passenger’s name is Cor Pan,a young man from Volendam on vacation with his girfriend,I think.He took a photo of the plane and sent it to friends ,or on Facebook writing “:Should it disappear,this is what it looks like”.All those poor people,what happened to them?Should’nt we look into the flightpath of MH-17 before it went into Ukranian airspace?The RD and RC was on the landing gear doors I think.The interesting thing is that Pan’s photo and Mofaz’s photo published by Reuters were taken from almost the same spot on a corridor,and yet showed different codes.I’m glad these points come up,because even in alternative media I’ve found nothing on this.There may be also the possibility of a bomb posed on Schiphol Airport.

          • AM Hants

            Didn’t realise Schiphol Airport was so near to the Law courts over in The Hague.

      • AM Hants

        Strelkov, said the same. The smell of old flesh, no body fluids. Rense Report, mentioned the cadavers on board.

  • verner

    the west needs to pretend and maintain the charade- nothing to do with what actually happened (ukrainian army from sheer luck managed to assemble a buk in a storage and loo and behold it flies – ask the israelis how high those buks can go, much higher than what the template states). but the need to have the russians in the cross hairs is more important than anything else (compare the skripal case and the lack of any tangible evidence).

  • Luke Hemmming

    Also any ground to air missiles would leave smoke con-trails in the sky for a while which would have visible for miles around and would have been filmed by at least 1 person but no video has ever surfaced.

  • Jake321

    Damn, the Islamist Iranians were at least man enough to admit to downing the airliner. Not those Vodka binging Russian he-men. And out come the tinfoil hat looney toons below. Too funny.