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On July 17, 2014, a Malaysian Boeing 777-200ER aircraft was conducting a scheduled passenger flight (MH17) from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. During a transit flight over the territory of Ukraine, the Ukrainian air traffic control charted the plane directly over the conflict zone between government forces and units of the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics.
At 13:20 UTC, the aircraft was shot down as a result of a fire damage from unidentified forces.
The Ukrainian side, with Western support, immediately blamed Russia for the incident. In turn, Malaysia, expresses deep concerns over the accusations against Russia and the course of the investigation.
On June 27, 2019, Ukrainian special services detained the ex-commander of one of the air defense units of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic Vladimir Tsemakh in Snejnoe, on the territory of the Donetsk People’s Republic. Ukraine’s State Security Service claimed that he was involved in the MH17 incident. Later, his status was changed to the “witness”. On September 7, 2019, Tsemakh was transferred to the Russian side as a part of the 35 for 35 exchange of the detained persons.
We present to your attention an exclusive interview with Vladimir Tsemakh (original in Russian) that reveals many interesting details.
Kirill Vyshinsky: Greetings. This is the second interview in the People of Donbass series. This man is not used to speaking on camera. He‘s giving the first interview in his life. In 2014, Vladimir Tsemakh was defending his home in Snejnoe in the region of Donbass. After 3 years, he returned to a peaceful life. In the summer of this year, he appeared in Kiev under strange circumstances, where he was arrested under even stranger circumstances. In September, thanks to the exchange of detained persons, Vladimir Tsemakh returned home.
Kirill Vyshinsky (KV): Vladimir Borisovich, good day!
Vladimir Tsemach (VT): Good day.
KV: We flew in the same plane in September, I saw you very briefly. We didn’t have time to say a word, but you were one of the most famous passengers and I really wanted to know your story, because you were made almost the main witness in the case of the downed Boeing.
KV: But this is not the beginning. Let’s start with your background. Tell us a few words about yourself.
VT: I was born in 1961. In 1978, I entered the Poltava Higher Anti-Aircraft Missile Command Red Banner College named after Army General Nikolai Fedorovich Vatutin. In 1982 I graduated. After that, I got to serve in the 40th Army, meaning in Afghanistan. I was there for three and a half months, after which I was sent to the Far East under an experience share (program), where I served until 1992 and went into reserve in 1992 on Victory Day.
KV: And after?
VT: After that, I returned to my hometown. Until 2019, I lived safely, with the exception of 2014, of course. I had quite a few different jobs. I didn’t sit in any one place very long.
KV: But nothing related to the army?
VT: No, absolutely not.
KV: You were made almost the main witness in the Boeing case only because you had headed Snezhnoy’s air defense since 2014. Tell us how you got there, what it was; what the weaponry was.
VT: I asked the city commandant, ”Am I needed?“ “Yes.” he said, “The anti-aircraft guns are gathering dust.
KV: When did this take place?
VT: It was June 26th, 2014. When I realized that this circus in Kramatorsk and Slavyansk would not easily end. Semenovka… I realized that they would not calm down.
KV: The authorities?
VT: The Ukrainian authorities didn’t want to talk with the people. They decided to talk from a position of strength. If you think that my grandchildren will not think in my language, that they could be forced to think in Ukrainian, this is wrong, I think. So, I had to go to the militia and after Ukrainian aviation attacked the city center, I got people together immediately. On that same day, I had a lot of people there. The armaments we had consisted of two anti-aircraft guns and two man-portable air defense systems.
KV: Tell me. What did you know then -about this downed Boeing?
VT: I knew as much as the general population knew. I found out either in the evening or the next morning about what happened.
KV: And tell me. In 2019, were you still serving in the army, in the People’s Militia?
VT: No. I finished my service in 2017. I had a compression fracture of the spine. So, my health didn’t allow me to serve.
KV: You were detained on June 27th. Right?
KV: On the 28th you were in Kiev. That’s actually the next day. You were detained in Snezhnoye which is around 60 kilometers from the separation line. Right?
VT: It’s further away by road. Turns out the city is only 78 kilometers to Donetsk.
KV: They detained you on the 27th. On the 28th you were already in Kiev, and on the 29th you were in court, where a preventive measure of restraint was chosen. How, under what circumstances, did you end up on the territory of Ukraine in such a short time?
VT: They took me straight away to the separation line. There he constantly kept in touch with the other side.
KV: He? Who’s “he”?
VT: The driver. He participated in the abduction. There were two people. Mortars were fired from the other side. They said they would shell five times for cover fire. They started pushing the wheelchair, and then a sixth shell was fired. I said, “Hey! If you want me dead, why don’t you just get on with it and bury me right here? Why drag this on?” That sixth shell almost hit us. I was even covered with dirt. It seems that it was before the shelling. Was it our people responding so quickly? You can understand the condition I was in. Under tranquilizers, I couldn’t perceive what was happening around me very well. We sat around and waited for the shelling to end, then they put a bag over my head. They kept me in a basement for about 20 minutes.
KV: Did this happen on the other side or here?
VT: On the other side, literally across the Creek. Their position was just 20 meters away -not far away it turns out. With a bag on my head, we ran for about half a kilometer to a minivan. They measured my blood pressure as 190 to 110. They said, “Ok,” the insect is healthy, normal. My head was bandaged and I was immediately sent in a minivan to Kiev.
KV: Were you transported through the separation line in a wheelchair?
VT: I was transported to the creek in the wheelchair and then was put on my feet. My legs buckled and they shoved me in the back. I fell to my hands. That’s all.
KV: So, you were in such a condition that you couldn’t walk?
VT: My legs buckled. Even when I was put in the wheelchair, I couldn’t put my feet on the step.
KV: But why?
VT: I couldn’t. They had to lift my legs, no more than 5 centimeters.
KV: Why did you feel like that? What happened?
VT: They injected two tranquilizers in me at home and a third, in front of Donetsk.
KV: What condition were you in when they brought you to Kiev?
VT: I began feeling normal about a week later. I’m not used to drugs like that.
KV: Was it something strong?
VT: Well, yes. I feel most rested when I sleep 7-8 hours. But I usually only sleep 6 or 7. When I was detained, I was always woken up at 6 AM; then I kept dozing off until around 10 AM.
KV: You said they took every document you had in your house and on your person?
KV: They attached them to the case file. Were they classified as secret?
KV: They fell under the stamp of secrecy with the consequence, in theory, of improving the case.
VT: That’s what happened.
KV: Nevertheless, in mid-July, your military ID appeared on some kind of investigative web site, it seems, Bellingcat. How can you explain this?
VT: It turns out the Security Service of Ukraine provided this information.
KV: Did it turn out to be a “classified” investigation?
VT: There was no secret. Collaboration was happening as if it was normal. There were no secrets.
KV: Where were you detained in Kiev, in what conditions? What was it like?
VT: At Askold’s detention center. The cell was two by five meters, with two bunks. I was alone there, literally. Just before being freed, a man was put in the cell with me. So, I was constantly alone. For the first two weeks I didn’t even have a bar of soap. I asked, “Give me at least a little piece of soap.“ But, “No”. They didn’t give me anything. For such a serious structure, you would think they could spend some money, at least for a bar of soap. It didn’t happen. As far as nutrition goes -you’ll live. You won’t die of hunger. For hours, it was lights out at 10 PM and rise at 6 AM.
KV: Were the lights turned off?
VT: No. The lights were on all the time. It was dim, but one light was always on. I was allowed to walk in the courtyard between 2 PM and 5 PM, always alone.
KV: Were you always under surveillance?
VT: Yes. The toilet was in the cell.
KV: How were the interrogations?
VT: If the Australians and the Dutch came, then this took place on the premises of the pre-trial detention center and if the SBU investigators conducted it, then I was brought to them.
KV: Were you subjected to polygraph testing?
VT: No. There weren’t any. The representative of the Prosecutor General’s office for some reason really “loved” me -constantly threatened me with a life sentence. But then, it was interesting. When the second interrogation was taking place, with alleged Australian or Dutch representatives, it was very obvious that they were brought up in Slavic families. The representative of Holland Ara Khataryan (I don’t remember the last name. It was like Armenian.) But she spoke the language exclusively. She spoke without an accent. She knew the language perfectly.
With the representative from Australia, Sergey, it was apparent that he was either an immigrant or that he was brought up in a Slavic family. He also spoke Russian well. But at that time, before the second interrogation, Ara was the only one present. The representative of the Prosecutor General’s Office told me, “Look. You’re not being exchanged. You’re going to get a life sentence, but a lot will depend on what answers you give to these comrades.” The camera is immediately turned on. Standard procedure. They asked, “Were there any threats?“ I answered, “If life imprisonment is not a threat, then everything is fine, good.“
KV: Do you treat this in a humorous light? Although, naturally, there was no way to have fun at that moment.
VT: I am a military man, after all.
KV: Can you tell us, in more detail, about these people, these foreigners?
VT: Representatives of the Australian police and the Netherlands police.
KV: Just them? Were there any Americans, or British, somebody else?
VT: No. No. Constantly, if the English-speaking comrade is sitting on the Dutch side, then the Russian-speaking one is Australian. And during the last interrogation -Ara and Sergey were both Russian speakers.
KV: Did they coerce you?
VT: They offered me to go into witness protection. They offered citizenship and a home in the Netherlands. I wondered why there and not in Australia, but I didn’t try to bargain. laughs
KV: Maybe you could have lived in the Netherlands?
VT: No. I’m used to living where I was born. If I came back to Khabarovsk I would still be closer to my native places. Nevertheless, they didn’t offer native places. In 2014, I was told that, for my Afghanistan service, a Moscow communal apartment is paid for and that I should live in it. How could I be cruel by leaving the elderly and the kids behind? Running away is always easy.
KV: Was there any “physical means of interrogation”?
VT: When they put me on the minivan, they struck my kidneys “a little bit.”
KV: Why did you talk to them at all, and not refer to the 63rd article of the Constitution, which allows you to not testify against yourself and relatives? This is a standard procedure. By the way, they should have introduced you to it.
VT: I know of the article. But why should I be afraid? I don’t consider myself a terrorist. I protected my home. Who am I afraid of? I believe that these comrades and I don’t deserve judgments. This is how I feel on the inside.
KV: The case against you, as I understand correctly, is the 258th, second part. Meaning the creation of a terrorist organization or group. Has the case not been closed yet?
14:04 VT: Yes. It turns out I’ve been released on bail.
KV: What do you think awaits you in Ukraine?
VT: Nothing good is waiting for me, especially if such comrades are in the Prosecutor General’s office. They start slobbering -probably over the thought of putting me away for life.
KV: Are you ready to talk in court about what happened to you, about the abduction, tranquilizers, forced detention, and interrogations? Are you going to appeal to international courts?
VT: I’m considering such a possibility.
KV: What’s your assessment of everything that has happened to you?
VT: I consider it an act of terrorism against me on the part of the Ukrainian state -trying to hang me. Well, I was the head of air defense. I explained to them that, for the most part, I did scare off their aircraft. Once the planes flew over and then didn’t fly any more in the area of Snezhnoye, I told my people, “Guys, bring me empty pipes.“ We filled them with sand, made triggers out of tin, painted them, and I had eight groups of “actors” which showed that we really did have MANPADS -and a lot of them too. Although we actually only had two Zu-23 guns and two MANPADS. And with just that we held the defense of such a territory! It’s just a title I had, “the head of air defense”. You could hardly even call it a platoon -by any stretch.
KV: Do you consider yourself a victim of terrorism?
VT: Of course. But this is a bigger mess because they really have nothing on me now or in the future. Maybe, because I didn’t like the events, he was trying to use me, the bigger man, for some sort of scape-goat absolution. It will be interesting to see how they try to hold their ridiculous stories together.
KV: Obviously, your attitude towards Ukraine has changed after what happened to you.
VT: For me it’s still my homeland. It’s bitter and insulting to look at everything happening there. For some reason, people religiously believe in help from the West. But I say it‘s probably necessary to read Taras Bulba. Everything is clearly explained there.
KV: Lyakhi (Poles/Polish) did not help?
VT: Right. They didn’t help. Such ideas are somehow new to this faith. It’s time to live, listening to your own head.
KV: Tell me, please, what is the nature of Donetsk character?
VT: During service in the Soviet army, if people from Donetsk came to serve, some of the gentlemen officers would clutch their heads. It’s a separate caste of people. We have a multinational side. More than two hundred nationalities live in the Donbass. The whole world built it in due time. So there you find friendship and camaraderie and cuisine -something like a special symbiosis.
KV: Did this help in 2014?
VT: Of course, it helped. There was no time to mobilize any forces. People were taught how to fight in literally three to four days. As subsequent events show, some can’t even learn this in two years -let alone three to four days.
KV: Thank you very much.
Get over it Putin you fukkin idiot we know you did it , typical liar like Lavrov .
this reeks of russian propaganda. Also since when is russia part of the global south? The people at southfront need to work on their geography. Russia is not deserving of support at this time.
Oh something smells all right. Ask a poor Venezuelan if Russia has helped the global south.
except they haven’t. They used the sorry state Venezuela is in to force it into having russian gas companies buy out their oil supply. If that isn’t an imperialist move i don’t know what is.
I love this kind of stuff. Right off the bat he tells them if you are gonna kill me get on with it. What’s more Russian than that. No fear. Sets up fake AA batteries and the Ukies chicken out.
I still haven’t heard a single logical reason for Russia to shoot down MH-17! Meanwhile F.uk.us and evil co-conspirators has so many reasons it gives me a headache to contemplate writing them all down again.
When your foreign policy is based on innumerable lies what are you offering the world? Expensive shit.
you are frankly pretty stupid . there is tons of evidence against Russia .
So because the MSM repeats something a million times their tons of bullshit is magically transformed into tons of evidence. Keep trying schlomo
bro it don’t take a rocket scientist or an american to see your a russian troll bot.
Well given the usual quality of your comments that is about par for the course. Long on the wrong.
sure slick whatever you say.
Talking of Ukraine, has anybody seen the Russia Today article featuring Kolomoisky? He wants to be friends with Russia and form a defence Union, sending tanks to Poland. To freak out NATO. Looks like he has fallen out with Zelenskys other mentor Soros, judging from Yahoo. The Soros funded anti-corruption team in Ukraine, is telling tales about US politicians and Burisma Holdings expenses.
Kolomoisky, who when the oligarch in control of Ukraine’s aviation and air traffic control, when The MH17 went down, apologised for taking out the wrong plane. They were expecting President Putin around that time. Kolomoisky, who owned the Privatt Group, before Porkie nationalised it and not forgetting Burisma Holdings were part of the Privatt Group.
Munching on the popcorn as Kolomoisky and Soros battle it out.
Kolomoisky, hants, you know this very well, has not “apologised for taking out the wrong plane”. No way. It is just your sick interpretation of what he did say. And Putin’s plane never entered Ukrainian airspace; in fact his plane flew above Belarus, more than 1000 kilometers away (north) from the point where MH17 was taken down. You also know this very well.
Darling, what are you on about? Kolomoiskys, who was the oligarch in control of aviation and Air traffic control, over in Ukraine, back in July 2014 happily admitted, in his own words that they took down the wrong plane. I have shared the video umpteen times. Now who was expecting President Putin to fly through Ukraine airspace, at that time, on that day, following a successful BRICS summit? Wasn’t Prime Minister Modi, just behind The MH17, returning from the same summit?
Not forgetting the pilot of the Ukraine military jet, who returned with his ‘air to air’ missiles missing, who said the same as Kolomoiskys, ‘he took down the wrong plane.
Kolomoisky “admitted” nothing, hants. Nor did he control the ATC. And no, Modi’s plane was not “just behind the MH17”. The nearest plane behind MH17 was flight SIA351, aka SQ351. Also, the pilot of the Ukrainian jet that you refer to never said that he had downed a civilian plane. False allegations, hants.
How would you interpret this…banderite?
He even found it funny. Reminds me of Clinton, how she would cackle when rejoicing the death of others. Gaddafi, US Ambassadors or little girls, violently raped by her clients. Didn’t she do well, thanks to Ukraine oligarchs?
Don´t know what to make of the Kolomoisky clip from YouTube. I think he did have something to do with the downing of MH17, but not as a rogue element. Giving the matter some thought. When the whole “The Russian´s did it” narrative goes tits up, they´ll have someone to blame.
My laptop is poorly and too lazy to use other computer, hence why not posting links. There was an old article linking Kolomoisky to it all, but, it all went wrong. Not sure if it was the article mentioning the python missiles, over on Veteran’s Today’. Also, another article linking him into Odessa Trade Union Building.
The irony, if he was hoping to assassinate President Putin, now he has allegedly fleeced the IMF loans, he now wants Ukraine and Russia to go back to best friend status.
Can you say at what altitude the flight you mention in your above reply….(SIA351)…..was travelling at during the time MH17 was shot down?
Can you also say if SIA351 also veered out of the designated flight corridor, as did MH17?
While you´re here….banderite…… Why do you “think” he committed “suicide”?…..I do mean the pilot of the Jet fighter who upon landing his craft a few minutes after MH17 was blown out of the sky, did say he shot down the wrong aeroplane.
I like this article.
No doubt about it. MH17 was shot down by fighter jets. All the evidence points that way. :-)
Liked that article. I had not seen it.
Yes, an interesting article. it is a shame none of the links on it are no longer available. Keeps coming up with “Page not found”. :-(
I have got loads of saved links, over on poorly computer. Seriously need to make sure still have access to them.
AM, why don’t you put those links in a doc file and keep it with your email provider online or in the cloud? And/or send to a trusted friend?
Laziness, but, will get around to some computer admin work, on the other computer over the few days. Good suggestion and did laugh you got down voted. Now who would down vote an interview please light suggestion and more importantly why?
I should have proof checked before posting. ‘Interview please light,’ should be ‘intelligent ‘.
I have to….Lots of saved links….I quite like this one.
It goes to show how incompetent those that carried out this false flag are.
Here it is……
So in a nutshell, those that uploaded the “evidence” by the SBU on YouTube claiming Russia shot down MH17 using their “proxies”, knew beforehand the plane will be shot down.
RUSSIA guilty in downing of MH17 , court case against the Russian men who pulled the trigger coming soon .
LMAO you banderite twat. …..The BBC?
Tell me something banderite….How is it you never upvote your girlfriend?
Looking forward to it. 9 May 2020 and no doubt it will be delayed.
Me to. Will it be delayed? Probably. They have nothing that would stand up in a court of law. All the “evidence” they have is all based on dodgy phone taps that have been proven to be false and social media.
Rater like the ‘Trump Impeachment Hearing ‘. Whether you like him or not, it is running like a Disney script and no evidence of him doing anything wrong. Just reading how it went when the US Ambassador took the stand. Serious comedy going down.
Worse than that AM, it’s satanic, that’s why it’s so demented, based on lies, deception and other satanic practices.
So true. Just posted a reply to none of your comments, stating reasons why.
Remember Litvenovsky and the investigation? Timothy Bell aka Bell Pottinger was the families PR Management Representatives.
Bell Pottinger who were given over 500 million US dollars to spin the Iraq War.
David Bell, his brother who set up common Purpose, who took control of the UK legal system and state funded institutions.
Common Purpose, who are heavily linked to Integrity Initiative, run by Bill Browser and funded by the UK tax payer, courtesy the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office. David Cameron, Common Purpose Member and assume his Home Secretary at the time was also a member of Common Purpose.
Then you have the Open Society Foundation and National Endowment for Democracy’s NGOs, again reliant on tax payer funding. Together with their tax payer funded Think Tanks. With the same few people found within them all, funded by tax payers of all NATO states, without their knowledge.
Apologies for repetitive rant, but, aimed at reader’s who are unaware of it all.
I wonder how many of the above are loyal to Missed, rather than their own nation?
Just like all your other BS. It is March, hants.
Ooops, typing error. No doubt, just like the coroner’s inquest into Dawn Sturgess, following her contact with ‘Eau de Novochok’, we will have a very long wait.
Explain the connection of PNAC to the war against the Donbass republics, you ignorant moron.
No1….What I don´t get banderite is why there are many down votes for comments others make, yet at the same time….You have so few up votes if any up votes. You see banderite, logic would dictate, should …lets say for example, you write a load of twaddle…which you do on a regular basis every time the subject of MH17 turns up…You should get the same amount more or less up votes as the person disagreeing with you gets down votes.
No2….Then there is the case whereby not one of those down voters actually disagree with anything I have written by putting their opinion forward.
No3….You get no up votes for the simple fact that ones identity is known on the up vote side, which would of course give away your username ID.
This means one thing, banderite…….You are using your multi accounts to down vote commentors you have a dislike for, with your girlfriend russie russie joining in.
You do realise to up vote using multi username accounts can get you banned from DISQUS……I will find out if the same applies to those that use their multi name accounts to down vote comments by writing to DISQUS and the proprietors of this web site.
You should know by now banderite….I always win. Your behaviour is that of a cowardly loser.
Hopefully the court case will cover these questions:
Why did the oligarch in control of Ukraine aviation and air traffic control, apologise for taking out the wrong plane?
Because if they had, it would have destroyed their lying narrative.
Must admit, owing to how things are going in the US and also the U K, I do wonder if they will go with a Soros/NED/Common Purpose judge and jury. Based on Lewis Carol’s Alice in Wonderland, fairy tale. ‘Sentence first, verdict afterwards ‘. Do you remember the Litvenovsky investigation, led by a coroner without the qualifications required, who came up with the verdict ‘probably’. Litvenovsky, whose PR Management company was Tim Bell’s ‘Bell Pottinger,’ and the legal system was under the control of his brother and Bill Browser’s input, with regards Common Purpose. Rd avid Cameron, Common Purpose Member Prime Minister at the time and isn’t Theresa May a Common Purpose Member and was the Home Secretary at the time’s
So will the Dutch adopt ‘probably’ as an acceptable verdict in their legal system?
PS having problems with my keyboard doing it’s own thing. As shown when typing David Cameron. Apologies, as patience I required haha.
Yes… right… why is the grass red and why is the water dry? Why should the court waste time on questions that are based on inpossibilities, stupidities and lies, hants?
You’re a dumbfuck Bruno, AM’s name is not ‘Hants’, LOL.
It isn’t “AM” either, rude kid.
I know that dumbo, but that’s what AM chose for her name here, so she’s ok with it otherwise she would have said.
Both the JIT and Russia agree that the aircraft was downed by a Buk missile.
Your first point……As Russia has not carried out a forensic examination of the MH17 wreckage….(funnily enough, nor have the Dutch “investigators”)…….it would not be possible for them to come to any conclusions. Don´t forget also banderite, the buk missile as shown by the jit has been proven to belong to Ukraine…..Can you say with this fact, the jit agree the buk missile was not “smuggled” from Russia?
Your second point…..Russia played no part in the investigation….Wtf is a “technical investigation”?
Your third point…..I presume those “foreign objects” would include a buk missile. Can you say if the radar saw one?…..A buk missile. Keep repeating the same shit banderite…ain´t gonna make it true.
On the other hand, there are lots of witnesses that saw fighter jets, yet none saw a buk missile. How do you suppose the ukies knew MH17 was going to be shot down the day before it happened? Can you say why MH17´s flight path was drastically changed from the previous days flights, and why it veered out of the designated flight corridor? Can you say why when MH17 requested to fly through ukie airspace at an altitude of 35,000ft, they were told by ukie ATC to fly at 32,000ft? Can you say why the ukie ATC gave these instructions, yet were not interviewed by the jit to ascertain the reasons?
You sorry loser. :-(
Malaysia Airlines’ flight plan https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/778f65bffea4d2454576482d150a5edb334bc596acc4dff463a5e80a4cdeb9ce.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f3865660fc573dd46bafd48a87e4d135ef4d4766e893c3273ed3c50d1afced00.jpg Other flights in the area: https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ef391a3f751285cf91895eeb91de39c14fc83912b1fc3fa4146258e3632168a4.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5a933654e686da3aae3b5899687ec2747e591a88503140da0cc02fa153eef25b.png
You did not take back the down votes on the comments on this article. :-(
When did you find out down voters usernames are exposed?
You have been caught out cheating. :-)
This idiot will say anything to avoid the gulag .
When Tsemakh landed in Moscow, he should have been arrested as there was an extradition request from the Dutch prosecutor. Russia not only made this Ukrainian citizen an essential pawn in the prisoners exchange deal with Ukraine, but, not for the first time, also acted against UNSC resolution 2166 by obstructing the investigation. After plenty indoctrination and instructions, any testimonies from this man have very probably become useless.
Nice words, but totally vacuous. You know as well as I do…there was no investigation …..banderite.
Tell me something, why do you “think” there was no forensic examination of the damage to the wreckage?
Btw, banderitre….your last sentence is nothing but speculation on your part.
Back up your claim of this “after plenty of indoctrination blah blah blah” nonsense. Lets see the “evidence”…or indeed shut your lying face. Now be a good little boy and supply some links to back up the twaddle you write.