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Israeli Forces Struck Syrian Armed Forces Positions Near Golan Heights

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Israeli Forces Struck Syrian Armed Forces Positions Near Golan Heights

IMAGE: An Israeli F-35I takes off from Uvda airbase during Blue Flag 2019

Late on August 3, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) struck several targets in the Syrian province of Quneitra. According to the IDF, the strikes hit observation posts, intelligence collection systems, anti-aircraft artillery and command and control systems of the Syrian Armed Forces. The Syrian state media reported that Syrian forces intercepted several missiles, while the impact of the rest of them caused a material damage only.

A day earlier, on August 2, the IDF claimed that it neutralized 4 gunmen that were trying to plant an IED on the security fence on the contact line between the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights and the government-controlled part of Syria.

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Joaquin

Every jew gangsta until Hezbollah makes it’s move

shylockracy

Syria needs to capitalise on these actions of the Zioterrorist Jew filth. Everytime this happens is a chance for pressure on Moscow and Tehran for anti-terrorist support. The real change in world order and international interactions necessitates more action against Ziocorporate terrorism, there’s no time to let the Kremlin negotiate too much with its Ziopartners over these issues.

LaRata

Time Syria….you need to respond to this …

Icarus Tanović

Don’t you worry buddy, Hezbollah will do the job.

Mustafa Mehmet

It’s been 10 years now it’s still waiting

Free man

They will “respond at the right time and in the right place,” “out of long-term strategic consideration,” “they will not fall into the Zionist trap.”
That is, they will do nothing (or do something insignificant to save face).

d'Artagnan

The biggest usurper in the region is now Turkey which acts on US and Zionist behest from Azerbaijan to Libya. The Arabs need to get over their petty differences and see who the real enemies are.

Zionism = EVIL

The best strategy is to wear them down in a wide front asymmetrical war. Sooner than later they will kill Egyptian and Russian soldiers on the ground and that may invite further Egyptian response. Turkey is now an official Americunt attack dog and supporting the Zionists in the Yinon Plan.

d'Artagnan

Turkey historically is a weak and treacherous vassal of Europe and then US. It was included in NATO merely as a cannon fodder to fight the USSR and now it is complete obedient servant of US and Zionists. The Turks have been Arabs real enemies, long before the Zionist presence in Palestine.

<>

Turkey and Israel see eye-to-eye the situation in Syria and both countries are taking care for their own interests. Turkey in the north wants a buffer zone for their forces and to stop the Kurdish militias at their border, Israel in the south wants to stop all the Iranian proxies at our border and we also target SAA assets for their assistance to them. we don’t contradict each other, and I hope both countries improve the relations we need it.

Jimmy Jim

GAS THE KIKES & ROAST THE TURKEYS!

Rhodium 10

Israel and Turkey have failed…its a matter of time that SAA retake Idlib and Israel cannot avoid that Iran deploy troops and weapons in Syria!..airstrikes ( which cause less damage that each ISIS attacks) dont change nothing!

Hyper20

Poor kid, your friends got fried again.

Jim Allen

?????attack dog…
Yeah, okay, if you say so…

Rhodium 10

Israel launched an attack vs Al Kiswah base in Damascus and failed( all missile were intercepted as that Irani&SAA base are well protected you can see it in google earth)…then they attacked SAA outpost in Quneitra under pretex of a failed IED…for other side Putin play to be “the good policeman” as he has close ties with Russian Jews and Etnic Turquic Oligarchy…but Russian military is the “bad police”..we have seen how a SU 34 smashed a Turkish outpost or MIG 29 armed with KH 31 kripton destroyed Turkish Hawk battery, radar and Koral EWS…Erdogan know that it was the hand of Russian military otherwise he would aim to UAE or Egypt….now Russia military allow Iran to stock weapons inside and around Latakia base…Israel knows airstrike only can damage agriculture warehouse while Irani&SAA drones and missile are well protected in sub shelters and bunkers which Delilah and even AGM 142 Popeye cannot destroy it!

Mustafa Mehmet

You have to be very brave to do that

guest

A bully can only be bully, if no one stands up to it. So far only Hezbollah effectively has and reduced the Israelis to beg for restraint as last week’s Zionist humiliation clearly exposed their morbid fear.

Cromwell

Indeed,i remember when i was at school a Bully wouldn’t leave one particular kid alone,he made his life a missery,i said to the kid next time just hit him don’t have a conversataion,he never did,one day he started picking on me,so a few days later i came into class and whacked him around the head with a telephone directory,end of problem,he never even spoke to me after that LOL!! years later i read in the local paper he had been injured in Northern Ireland during a riot,he had joined the army,i thought the bastard probably started the riot LOL!!

Cromwell

The Israelis are always talking about imaginary Iranian soldiers in Syria,i would give them something to complain about by sending thousands of Iranian troops,if that had been done a long time ago this would be over.

d'Artagnan

Iran has less than 50 advisors in Syria.

Cromwell

That just my point,think if they had a hundred thousand troops and full armoured divs plus missile units,including anti ship missile units,then we would see if the Israelis want to play.

<>

Liek that would have stopped us, you don’t know us very well do you?

Jim Allen

Yes, and WWIII would be over, too.

Cromwell

WW3 started with the Nato attack on Yugoslavia.its just that some people haven’t realized it yet.

Fog of War

Syria CANT really respond to attacks from Idlib.
Syria CANT really respond to attacks from Turkey.
Syria CANT really respond to attacks from SDF.
Syria CANT really respond to attacks from ZIoAmerica.
Syria CANT really respond to attacks from Kurds.
Syria CANT really respond to attacks from Israhell.

See a pattern ?

gryzor84

Syria has been continuously hammered economically and shattered kinetically over the past decade, and keeps on sustaining opportunistic, cowardly blows from all sides coming from several powerful parties hell-bent on keeping it down as long is it is possibly imaginable. It will take huge blood and treasure for them to gradually overcome this era and recover a modicum of capacity to respond beyond the diplomatic dimension… the sooner this is accepted as facts, the better people can adjust to such patterns of utmost sadness.

To put things into perspective, one has to remember that Iran was in the same position in the late 80s when it was at its worst bot militarily and financially after dragging so long against an internationally-backed Saddam while itself was under embargo.

At one point it even had to sustain KSA pot shots resulting on two kills on its precious F-14s in one go, not to mention America’s Praying Mantis naval operation that cost it dearly in oil rigs and navy assets, and humiliated it big time. Such occurrences seems unthinkable now in the PG, but we had to wait 4 long decades to get there, besides and Iran suffers too in parallel to its military industrial progress. Those are very long processes, and have to be accepted as protracted phenomena ! things will change, certainly not overnight though.

igybundy

On 6 November 2003, the International Court of Justice ruled that “the actions of the United States of America against Iranian oil platforms on 19 October 1987 (Operation Nimble Archer) and 18 April 1988 (Operation Praying Mantis) cannot be justified as measures necessary to protect the essential security interests of the United States of America.” However, the International Court of Justice dismissed Iran’s claim that the attack by United States Navy was a breach of the 1955 Treaty of Amity between the two countries as it only pertained to vessels, not platforms.[4]

The Objective

How does that declaration help Iran. No one cares because no one can make the U.S accountable. So your comment doesn’t make any sense. Everyone knows that the U.S is unfair in all of its dealings with others.

The Objective

Comparing Syria’s situation to that of Iran in the late 80s is pure delusion. For starters, Saddam’s army was the only force that managed to temporarily occupy a small part of Iran. On the other hand, Syria has been occupied by ISIS, Alqaeda, America, and Turkey. While Saddam and Iranian forces were near-peers, Assad has no chance against Turkey or the U.S.

Syria’s war started from an uprising even if that uprising was foreign-sponsored. The uprising led to serious divisions among the population. On the contrary, the case of Iran was an overt invasion. Much of the Iranian population was united against their attackers.

So how can you compare Syria’s situation to Iran’s in the 80s?

Syria’s problem is mulitdimensional. Apart from domestic opposition, it faces significant international resistance. And Iran brought this problem upon the Syrians. Now the Iranian axis is on the defensive, trying to survive the onslaught that its foreign policy of “exporting the revolution” brought upon the Iranian people.

gryzor84

Again with that lie of yours. Iran and Russia both prevented Syria from disintegrating as a secular society and nation, and instead becoming a backwards pseudo-Caliphate à la Afghanistan on top of being a de-facto satellite of Gulf monarchies namely the KSA, supporting dozens of jihadist paramilitaries inside the country directly aligned with Al-Qaeda. And no amount of repetition of that looping iranophobic propaganda piece of yours will ever change that fact.

Anyway you missed the point of my comparison entirely, and simply rushed to contradict me whenever I mention Iran, a topic on which you have not demonstrated notable aptness to discuss lately.

Indeed, I was merely speaking of a material inability to respond to occasional foreign aggression on a country exhausted by war and technically besieged economically and militarily that has to take its losses and humiliations without the ability to directly respond, outside of any political or historical considerations. So I wonder why you arbitrarily gave a larger scope to my words than I did myself.

And in that regard, Iran in the 80s and Syria since 2011 faced the exact same situation, notwithstanding how they got there, or what the internal situation looked like at the time of conflict. You are making political and moral judgments, my point wasn’t even to discuss these dimensions of the matter here.

Besides you made a complete fool of yourself by seemingly ignoring that despite being the country attacked, Iran became infamous for being the one embargoed by most powers instead of its invader, by BOTH blocs of the Cold War, since it had the bad luck of going against a Soviet ally on top of a friendly US government dead-set on killing an Iran freshly outgoing its unconditional sphere or influence by whatever menas necessary, including overt support to a notable Soviet middle-eastern protegee.

You also seem to lack knowledge on the internal political situation at the time. Iran’s burgeoning “revolutionary government” was already suffering an existential crisis, hadn’t delivered on any of its main promises that got them the needed popular support to begin with, though the war effectively triggered a patriotic wave that saved Khomeini’s regime totally in extremis. He then used the war as a cover to quell whatever remained of intellectual opposition to him in two wave of mass executions both in 81 and 88. He refused to stop the wars on favorable terms after grasping back whatever lands of importance Saddam once had captured in oil-rich border regions because he knew his rule was still threatened from the inside, and the US was busy preparing the ill-fated Nojeh coup with corps of air-force officers that had come back to Iran to fight the Baathist invader.

While Iran as a country had nothing to do structurally and nationally to its Syrian counterpart, and its political situation or sectarian composition with no compare to that of Syria at the time open hostilities started, the “unity” you speak of was not that monolithic at all, many factions existed within Iran, monarchy nostalgics, communists, anti-regime social-democrats, liberals and so on. They ALL had agendas during the war, as none of them magically forgot their ambitions or opinions towards the regime just because the war started. It took a year to kick out Saddam’s troops out of Iran, the war itself dragged on for 7 more long years.

There was also the MKO that fought against its own country until th every end of the war. Most Iranian remained united in the face of outside aggression and that was a good thing to prevent a breakup of the large country, yes, but the same can now be said of Syrians.

Today is not 2012. Most citizens have realized the true foreign agenda of all the generous “helping hands” extended from Europe and the US, see the paramilitary groups exactly for what they are, and while some remain hostile to the Baathist regime, most prefer a status quo to outright disappearance of their nation to Salafist warlords. National reconciliation is working where it matters most (i.e. major cities) despite many expected hurdles and setbacks, and of course all the relentless propaganda the likes of you try to throw all over the place and hide that.

This trend is further consolidated b their understandable disgust at the level of unjust pressure they still suffer from via massive and destructive unilateral US sanctions + occupation of oil-rich eastern regions and its obsession in balkanazing the state by illegally supporting a Kurdish quasi-state on 30% of its territory, all of which directly and willingly contribute to prevent reconstruction or stabilization of the country whatsoever, and also implicitly helping Turkey maintain and expand its military presence in Norther Idlib going as far a circulating the Lira and replacing state institution with its own wherever it can.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Russia may be opposed to a secular society in Syria but Iran definitely isn’t, perhaps you should find out exactly what’s really happening by doing some research on Iran’s involvement in Deir ez Zor, the education system Iran’s imposing on the local Sunni population tells a different story to the one you’re telling.

gryzor84

Go and visit Northern Idlib and the kind of Shariah rule it currently lives under,with full US-blessing and diplomatic defense,or the AQ-flags flying over East Aleppo before it was retaken by the SAA,then we’ll talk again. And anyway what’s in such paradoxes ? Are we into unicorns ? Lilewise, did Washington ,Pakistan and the Saudis support democratic secularism in Afghanistan ? it was that before, yet they turned it into a den of islamist warlords.

Of course the Iranians,like every player involved, are cynical in their strategic supoort of a secular rule in this particular theater. Just like the Israelis overtly sheltering, arming and providing air cover to AQ-aligned salafist anti-Assad paramilitaries setting up camp in the occupied Golan until 2015, as well as their no less official alliance with the Gulf monarchies.

That kind of dirty little gaming goes both sides. I’m fully aware of the underlying project of Irans involvement. Yet,in all fairness, as much as it was in the West/Gulf/Israeli/Turkish interests for one of the few remaining secular regimes in the region to crumble even if it means the likes of ISIS getting a piece of their caliphate in the process,Iran has every interest in maintaining it as it was. That does not mean I support their ideology or motives beyond that.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Sharia Law is the only law of the land in Iran, there is no other law, they chop people’s heads off for theft, adultery, and religious offenses in the exactly same way Isis, HTS, and Al Nusra does.
Rami Maalouf has been doing heaps of deals with Syria lately, but the last deal he arranged to do with Iran got him into big trouble, now he’s being stripped of all his wealth and Iran’s no longer allowed to set up the new telecommunications network for Syria.
look at Deir ez Zor and pay close attention, in the areas that Iran controls they’ve not only imposed Sharia Law, they’ve also taken over the Syrian education system, now Sunni children are brainwashed with Shia religious doctrines when they go to school instead of Sunni doctrines, but before Iran arrived no religious classes were taught in school at all, that was only taught in the Mosque, but not now Iran’s here it isn’t, now it’s part of the school curriculum in Iranian controlled areas.
So is it any wonder the local Sunni population keep holding anti Iranian protests lately, the same thing’s been happening in Daraa and Quneitra, they’re protesting against Iran too now.
Not everything Iran does in Syria is beneficial for Syria, if it was Russia wouldn’t have created the 4th and 5th SAA corps.
And Iran helped Turkey draw up resolution 2254, you know the resolution Assad refused to accept for nearly 5 years and said he’d never accept it because it gave the Turkish backed opposition way too much political power in Syria.
If you just look at the words spoken you’ll never know the truth, you need to look at all the deeds too, then you’ll see the words and the deeds don’t really relate to each other at all.
Iran did help save Syria in the beginning that’s true, but I’m afraid they’re no longer a helping hand for Syria, now they’ve just become another burden for Syria to bear, financially, politically, and socially.

gryzor84

Nobody really offered Syria with a selfless and sincere helping hand. When you look at Iran and Syria, it’s not even moral, or ideological, since they otherwise supported worse sometimes both home and abroad depending on the theater, despite both claiming they want to re-establish and/or defend the “people of Syria”.

In these affairs, every bit of support is to be viewed as a mid to long-term investment by the parties. Resolution 2254 indeed shows the level of desperation of Assad, and his inaptitude to comprehend political complexities in his situation. Had he been smarter (i.e. not a bloody tyrant) in the first place, he would have been able to contain the peaceful protest that initially erupted, before all the enemies of a united Allawite-led Syria all jumped in the train, destroyed whatever authenticity there was in the short-lived nationalist struggle against Assad and gave space to Islamist usurpers and their opportunistic backers. A tragic story, still in the making…

Willing Conscience (The Truths

What you said in the first paragraph it something I agree with 100 and 1%, but I do have another opinion concerning Assad’s temperament, objectives, and responses to the uprising.

Assad was the son of a dictator and yet he choose the medical profession as his career.
And despite the fact he’s Alawite, he actually married a Sunni Muslim woman, and a very well educated and career orientated one at that [financial].
And he’s always been eager to engage in reconciliation agreements with everyone, even in Goutah he made every effort he could to negotiate a peaceful exodus of the terrorist forces, sadly that ended with a total bloodbath for the innocent civilians but I only blame the opposition for that.
And he allowed the Russians to recruit opposition factions to the Russian backed and supported 4th and 5th SAA corps [make your enemy your friend], so he’s not completely intolerant of any sort of opposition from within.
And the early repression of the uprising was always attributed to the local governors responses to the local situations, and not to directives from either Assad or the central government.

But there is no proof either way so it’s impossible to conclude what the truth really is, but using all the criteria I mentioned above, I don’t think Assad was as oppressive or as opposed to dissention as you may believe he was, but as I said since there’s no proof either way it’s only my opinion, I could in fact be wrong and you may indeed be right, sadly we may never know the truth.

In times of danger people always stick to the people they trust most, in Assad’s case it’s the Alawite population, and even though it’s helping Assad’s security and stability short term, I think it’s harming his overall position long term.
I don’t see any available solutions in the immediate future but what the Russians have been doing seems to be a start, it hasn’t been very successful recently [Daraa/Quneitra], but overall it has shown some positive results.
The Intelligence agency is where all the dissention is occurring now, the Arab Alawites, the Arab Shia, and the Persian Shia are all overrepresented in that agency, that’s where the Sunni and the minority groups need more of a voice.
But sadly since more people are dying in Syria due to assassinations than they are by open hostilities, I’d say they have a long way to go before anything changes on that front.
Cheers.

gryzor84

Indeed Assad was never favorite or next in line to succeed his father, and the fact that he choose a prestigious medical carrier shows he either realized or gladly accepted that fact.

Now despite that, once on the throne by will or responsibility, he technically became a dictator in the strictest definition of the term, as he “passed” all the main characteristics of one :

-No independent press
-No real political pluralism within existing institutions
-Political dissidence was violently repressed, and political prisons were notorious for being among the most inhumane by regional standards

That is not to say that he was one of the most brutal in town, considering the horrendous nature of some neighboring rules, namely the KSA or Iran which has proven in times of crisis that it can be even worse in quelling unarmed protests. Again, this is facts. KSA has Yemen as living (dead?) proof of its rulers’ insanity when they obsessively choose a given path forward.

And as much as I support it as some sort of lesser, secular evil that despite all its downsides and documented abuses, still provides a resemblance of hope for a more progressive future for the Syrian state in general , I cannot condone or ignore all the wrong his rule has also done. He seems more interested in remaining personally in power along with his dominant sect and prefer to focus on taking down member of his own family in business dispute rather than more actively working to provide relief to his own people.

I actually agree with most of your assertion on the successive events taking place around reconciliation. The little advances that are being painstakingly made by Assad and his close associates in the government are getting actively hampered by external forces hell-bent on simply keeping Syria down as long as possible, only caring about the regional picture and absolutely ignoring the plight of its people or national integrity as a unified nation at all.

I have nothing to add to your bottom line on the long tunnel ahead still for regular , innocent Syrians to this day in 2020… time will tell if any milestone is reached at least internally, but like you, I’m quite pessimistic.

Cheers

gryzor84

You mean Russia supports and Iran doesn”t,right ? In this case I don’t see where’s the news in such pseudo-paradoxes.That kind of dirty double dealings is commonplace from one theater to another,irrespective of the era and context. I would have invited you to visit East Aleppo and its AQ-flags waved everywhere before its reconquest by regular SAA forces, and the kind of rule currently dominating Northern Idlib with NATO-member Turkey and America’s blessing in doing basically what it wants there including with the Kurds for some time.The same way Washington instigated Islamist insurgency in once modern and secular Afghanistan hand in hand with the Pakistanis and Saudis,it blessed a coalition of Gulf monarchies in funnelling weapons and money to and organizing recruitment for litterally dozens upon dozens of islamist paramilitary groups directly aligned ideologically with AQ,namely Al-Nusra itself which was nothing short of its branch in Syria to begin with. Or Israel sheltering and providing support and even air cover for salafist groups freely setting up camp in the Occupied Golan until 2015. Washington time and again prevented Russia’s effort in blacklisting the oines of Ahrar Al Sham and Harakat Nourideen Al Zinki as terrorist entities at the UN.

What I’m interesting in is who fights for what, and what are consequences of each prevailing. In Syria’s case, the West, Israel and Turkey decided to enter a broad unholy alliance with the worst petromonarchies in town to achieve their goal,and leaked emails show the likes of Hilary stating the “they’re on the same side with Al-Qaeda on this one” or McCain getting photograph side by side with salafist and/or MB commanders.

No matter the underlying ideology practiced at home in Iran (that I happen to oppose in full),the consequences of their i terest aligned with the lesser evil and prevented along with Russia the disintegration or yet another secular nation-state. We were *this*close to Afghanistan 2.0

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Russia does more than Iran does to help Syria in some respects but in others Russia falls far behind, so they both help and hinder at the same time depending on the situation.
Financially and militarily Iran punched way above its weight for Syria, they were excellent allies in that respect, but then they worked with Turkey to help implement resolution 2254, and now they’re trying to take over Syria to recoup their financial losses, and also possibly trying to start a war against Israel, so both good and bad aspects from Iran.
Russia on the other hand didn’t punch above its weight for Syria, it actually went down a division, and Putin’s panderings to Erdogan have left huge chunks of Syria’s territory under Turkish control, resolution 2254, Astana agreements, Russian/Turkish Memorandums of Understanding :[, but they’ve also been politically vital for Syria, without Russian political support Assad could never have survived, and they also created the 4th and 5th SAA corps that were totally independent from Iranian influence, so both good and bad from them too.
But they aren’t the only 2 options Assad has anymore, now he can also pick and choose options from the Arab League, the US, and Israel too, and Russia doesn’t mind if he does, they’re actually encouraging him to have other options [so long as it doesn’t harm Russia], but the Iranian’s don’t want Assad to have any other option but them, so in that respect Russia wins hands down for me, Russia does have a viable path for Syrian survival, but Iran doesn’t.

All I can say in response to your comment are things have totally changed since Trump’s been in power, and if you’d like to know why I think they’ve changed, you can read the rest of my comment, but be warned, it’s a long one.

In mid 2017 the Arab League brokered a reconciliation agreement between the 60,000 strong Southern Front Alliance and the Syrian Government.
At the end of 2017 Trump told the Kurds he wanted to pull US forces out of Syria.
Early 2018 Trump told the FSA [that the US was officially supporting] to lay down their weapons and reconcile with the Syrian government, when they didn’t Trump sacked the FSA [30.000+ strong] and kicked them out of Al Tanf.
Then in june 2018 Trump told the FSA they wouldn’t get any military support from the US if they fought against the Syrian government.
Also in june 2018 Israel and the US both gave Russia and Syria the green light to attack the FSA, HTS, and Isis in the southern territories with only one stipulation, Iran wasn’t to involve itself in the fighting or operate in any areas closer than 60 km away from the Israeli border [they did and got busted].
It only took the SAA and Russia 7 weeks to demolish all the southern terrorists and reclaim the southern territories, and neither the US or Israel lifted a finger to help the terrorists as they officially stated they wouldn’t, though Israel did rescue the White Helmets to hide their complicity in previous nefarious dealings, I know what they did too, so I’m not forgiving them for what they’ve done in the past, I’m just trying to accept the new reality.
Pre 2017 the Arab league, the US, and Israel all wanted Assad to go, by mid 2017 the Arab League was saying Assad could stay and they instead wanted the Muslim Brotherhood and Turkey out.
In mid 2018 the US and Israel also started saying they wanted Assad to stay and wanted the Muslim Brotherhood out too, but only the Arab league and Israel were saying they wanted Turkey out as well, the US wasn’t saying that.
Everything changed in june 2018, that’s when the war really ended, the people who wanted to start the war in the first place have mostly changed their minds now, they all realize that the Muslim Brotherhood is the real enemy they face, and also realize Assad can actually be their friend and ally in that war that’s still to come.
The war morphed into the Erdogan and the Muslim Brotherhoods war after june 2018, it’s not the same war that started in 2011.
The Saudis have spent more money than anyone else trying to depose Assad, they were spending money to depose Assad 2 years before the war even started, and yet in june 2018 they stopped supporting HTS altogether, and they started trying to reopen diplomatic relations with Syria, they also began a campaign to stop Turkey’s interventions into Syria [by spending hundreds of millions in Turkey to support the Turkish political and media opposition], and last year they also offered Assad one billion US dollars to help with reconstruction costs [Assad refused]. So the Saudis and the Arab League [minus Qatar] have actually switched sides in the war, and they’ve brought the US and Israel with them.

In 2015 the Russians, Iranians, and the Turks all sat down and drew up a new resolution to help solve the political crisis/war in Syria, they took that resolution to the UN and got it passed, the only problem was Assad refused to accept that resolution, the one his allies and Turkish enemy ‘helpfully’ proposed.
Then at the end of last year the UN made Assad a new offer, they told him they’d amend the old Russian, Iranian, Turkish resolution to effectively give the Turks way less say in Syria’s political future, and Assad jumped at the offer and accepted it the very same day they offered the new deal, so nearly 5 years of saying no to his allies Iran and Russia, but less then one day to say yes to his enemy the UN, mmm.
Self interest is the key to understanding everything in Syria now, there are no good or bad parties, just self interests, so Assad has to try and pick and choose, at least as much as he’s able to, and no option should be off the table, if it’s in Syria’s best interests it should be an available option, no matter where the option comes from.
That’s what everyone else in Syria is doing now so Assad should be doing the same thing.
Cheers if you manged to read my bible.

gryzor84

I did, and agree with most of it. Thanks for taking the time to provide your take in full. THe only part where I might disagree is a mere technical topic. I believe Qatar actually opened up to Assad and gave him several diplomatic nods tu support its intention at least in words. It happened after its rift with the GCC initiated by the Saudis, and its consequential rapprochement with Iran with which it already enjoyed rather cordial relation along with Turkey for quite some time. This indirectly benefitted Syria as well as it created some kind of de-facto momentum or at least some shift in the anti-Assad alliance.

The US is persisting in its maximum pressure policy and balkanisation project in the oil-rich Northeast as we have recently seen with the “officially illegal” deal with some unnamed US firm helping Kurds further cement their hold and pseudo-legitimize their quasi-state. Paradoxically they also do this together with anti-Kurdish Erdogan (opposed wholly by the majority of opposition parties namely the CHP, and also growing signs of discord and clear rifts within his own party).

That one clearly gives credence to the key part of your (rather refreshing) “Bible”, which is : the predominance of self-interest.

Today’s enemies can LITERALLY by tomorrow’s allies given a specific situation where common interest govern their action. Ideology is just a cover to garner support both at the homefront and galvanize proxies, nothing more. The Syrian conflict in its multi-sided absurdities has shown how much truth there is tot hat.

Cheers ;)

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Qatar is still a member of the Arab league so they have to comply to the leagues overall political direction, and since the league is vehemently opposed to Muslim Brotherhood’s activities in Syria, Libya and Iraq, I suspect Qatar is possibly just accommodating the rest of the League’s wishes whenever they make any political concessions or do anything at all positive.
Qatar still pump huge amounts of money into the Muslim Brotherhood’s coffers so they’re still a big part of the problem, without funds from Qatar the terrorists/militants couldn’t buy new weapons or pay salaries, so hopefully the rest of the Arab League will start applying even more pressure on Qatar to get them stop funding the opposition fully.

And I’ve done the maths concerning Syrian oil revenue and the numbers all add up to the same answer Trump got when he did the maths, it’s costing the US 5 times as much to stay in Syria as they could possibly get from selling stolen Syrian oil, so Trump’s answer to the equation was the “the US have to get out”.
Even if all the oil fields are restored to full capacity it still won’t come close to covering the US’s overall expenditure. Production [in US occupied areas] stands at somewhere between 120 and 300 mill per year now, and at full capacity that would probably double, or possibly even triple if prices go back up, but it’s still falls way way short of the 1.5 bill a year it cost the US to remain in Syria.
About 3 or 4 months ago I linked a speech from Lavrov in one of my SF comments to prove a point, in his speech he openly admitted that the only reason the US hadn’t pulled out of Syria as Trump stated they would, was the fact the Russian’s had allowed the Turks to occupy northeastern Syria.
In his statement he said he was fully aware the Kurdish led Syrian Democratic Council and it’s military arm the SDF, were fully engaged in a reconciliation agreement with the Syrian Government, and also said the process had come to an agreement, but then he also added that the agreement had ended the moment the Turks were allowed to invade northeastern Syria.
I suspect Lavrov made that speech because he most likely opposed the decision to allow the Turks into Syria, and I also think the only reason Trump also agreed to it too, was the fact Putin had already agreed to Erdogan’s demands to allow a military incursion.
So unlike most people I don’t think oil theft is the reason the US want to remain in Syria, I honestly think the only reason the US didn’t pull out of Syria was the fear the Turks would just take over the oilfields when they left.

The US is doing what the Israelis want them to do, and sadly that will probably never change, but Israel isn’t Syria’s arch enemy anymore so Assad doesn’t have to oppose them on every front, he can pick and choose his battles with Israel in the timeframe that suites him, he can give them some of the things they want in return for some of the things Syria wants, and believe it or not I honestly think that could even mean a return of the Golan Heights if Assad chooses the right time and situation.

Iran is the key to everything.

“Today’s enemies can LITERALLY by tomorrow’s allies given a specific situation where common interest govern their action.”

I totally agree, truer words have never been spoken, and when it comes to geopolitics that’s the general rule that usually applies, sadly Assad doesn’t follow that principal because he still refuses to accept the Arab league’s help, and now they’re actually begging Assad to let them help him, talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth.

I’ve gotten to a point where I honestly believe Assad’s allies have become nearly as much of a problem as they are a help, and I know Assad can’t do anything to stop that, he’s just a little piggy stuck in the middle, he has to follow the rest of the herd or he’ll be picked off by the circling predators.
But I’m not afraid of the circling predators or his allies, they can’t hurt me, that’s why I sometimes advocate for, or sometimes criticize certain issues on Assad/Syria’s behalf [Syria first Assad second].
But sometimes that means I take an opposing view to my fellow SF commenters, especially the pro Russian and pro Iranian supporters, and as you’re probably already aware that can cause a tirade of abuse, so it’s lucky for me I really do believe that old saying “sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me”.

But I enjoy my discussions with you, no abuse, knowledgeable reposes, polite discourse, and a gracious acceptance of a differing opinion, that’s out of place here on SF [but very much needed].
Cheers. :)

gryzor84

I don’t doubt Iran, like every other player, has hidden agendas behind their intervention. Again I don’t support eh regime ideologically. I support their action objectively on that particular theater as some sort of lesser eveil at least on the mid-term.

But you should have booked a trip to East Aleppo when Al-Qaeda flags were flying around at every corner to have an idea of the kind of classes taking place there as well, you would have been surprised of their teachings. You still have time to discover the virtues of living in Northern Idlib ruled by a coalition of AQ-aligned groups or MB affiliates, sometimes also chopping each other heads when the aren’t busy imposing their vision of Shariah Law.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

Iran used to train Muslim Brotherhood fighters in Iran not too long ago, they did have a very good relationship once, and right up until Iran attacked Aleppo last year Turkey also had a good relationship with Iran too, but since the Iranians attacked the Turkish backed forces in Aleppo last year that’s all changed, now Turkey and the MB are doing everything they can to destroy Iran’s economy and punishing them mercilessly.
Iran already has Sharia Law as the top law of the land, and it supersedes all other laws in the country, I think you need to do some research on their political and religious systems if you’re not aware of that.
Their laws are no different to the ones Isis, HTS, Al Qaeda, and the Taliban all obey, the only difference is one group belong to the Sunni denomination and the other belongs to the Shia denomination, there may be a few minor differences between them, for example both groups will cut your hand off for theft and chop your head off for adultery, but one group will punish you on a saturday and the other believes it should be a sunday you’re punished on, or the punishment should occur before noon for one group and the other it’s after noon, my point is basically they’re both the same when you strip things down to the basic level.
The only thing I used to think was different between the 2 groups was the false belief that Iran unlike the other Sunni groups, didn’t try to force their ideology on anyone else but their own people, but that was only until I found out what’s really been going on in Deir ez Zor, now I see there’s absolutely no difference between Iran and all the Sunni terrorist organizations, they’re both the same, and the thing that makes them both terrible is their adherence to Sharia Law.

gryzor84

I am absolutely aware of the political structure in Iran and oppose it in full, don’t worry for my research. That is exactly why I support NO side in this regional struggle. I simply pick and choose whatever localized event can provide a better alternative, or rather should I say the lesser of two evil when it comes to countries at war. I would advise you to read my last reply to “The Objective “in this thread if you need more insight into my overall position on religious rule as a political establishment. In that regard, we think the very same about the exportation of Sharia Law, equally practiced yet through differing strategies between the GCC and Iran, as you mentioned.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

You’re picking the right side if you don’t pick any sides at all, I often say I follow the gameplay and not the individual teams, that way I can barrack for all the good plays by either team and boo all the fouls by both teams.

The Objective

You made a good point with this statement: “You are making political and moral judgments”.
I make only moral judgement cos Iran claims to be an Islamic republic leading the people by God’s laws. The Mullahs mention Allah more than any other regime I can think of. Being a Muslim, I should apply the Islamic moral standard to their actions.

My reply only rebuffed your comparison of the situations on Syria and Iran. The MKO you mentioned cannot be compared in size to the number of rebels and terrorists opposing Assad in Syria. MKO also enjoyed little support from Iranians, unlike the robust support Syria’s opposition has within the country.

It is you who do not apply much logic in your comments. Your statements in the first comment can be analysed using some mathematical logic. For example, you said:
“To put things into perspective, one has to remember that Iran was in the same position in the late 80s when it was at its worst bot militarily and financially after dragging so long against an internationally-backed Saddam while itself was under embargo”

I want you to isolate the statement, “Iran was in the same position in the late 80s”. Then I did some comparison, and here is what I arrived at:
1. The only foreign forces that invaded Iran overtly was Saddam’s forces. In the case of Syria, the invading forces included those of Turkey, the U.S., Hezbollah, Russia, and even Israel. some support the regime, others oppose it. Surely, Iran didn’t witness such a situation in the late 80s.

2. Iranians were far less fragmented internally. Most (at least 90%) of them supported the war against Saddam and the MKO. This does not mean that they didn’t have any differences, but the divisions among them wasn’t to the extent that they were willing to take up arms against one another. On the other hand, Syria’s case is quite different. First, there is significant opposition to the Syrian regime. We can see that by the large number of rebels and those who were willing to protest against the regime back in 2011 and 2012.

So the only point on which we disagree was saying Syria’s and Iran’s case are thesame. It would be better to say they share some similarities.

Regarding your claim that I am falsely spreading anti-Iran propaganda, I want you to know that I had once being a staunch supporter of the Iranian regime. I did pray for its progress and was really saddened for weeks after the killing of Soleimani. I prayed for Soleimani’s soul and really hated Trump for that. For days, I could not concentrate on my work because I was worried Iran will be attacked by the U.S. I truly looked upon Iran as a heroic Muslim country standing up to the oppressors of Muslims.

Then someone made a claim on one forum that the Soleimani we are mourning once cooperated with the U.S. to kill Sunni Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq. I was shocked by this claim and couldn’t believe it. Then I decided to do some research just to confirm that the guy was wrong. Unfortunately, I turned up plenty of material dated years back, which confirms that Iran worked with the U.S to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. Knowing that war killed over a Million Muslims, most of them Sunnis, I was really angered and hated the Iranian regime more than I ever hated America. Because I believed the Iranian regime was protecting our lives (Sunnis and Shiites), not knowing it was plotting ways for the downfall of Sunni communities to the extent it is willing to cooperate with external powers to kill us.

I hope now you understand why I hate the Iranian regime so much.
If you dispute any of the claims regarding Iran’s cooperation with the U.S during the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, we can argue that. I have all the proof you need.

gryzor84

“You made a good point with this statement: “You are making political and moral judgments”.
I make only moral judgement cos Iran claims to be an Islamic republic leading the people by God’s laws. The Mullahs mention Allah more than any other regime I can think of. Being a Muslim, I should apply the Islamic moral standard to their actions.”

By saying this you bring nothing new to our previous lengthy exchanges I’m afraid. I already know full well your position, and you mine. But I tell you once more, those views are biased. We both might be biased, actually. From my perspective, the KSA does the exact same, at the very least. And so even more than any other Gulf monarchy. As before, you continue to ignore the actual, measurable damage they do while exporting their ideology and achieving pieces of their geopolitical agenda, beyond the mere moral standpoint that you usually put the emphasis on.

“My reply only rebuffed your comparison of the situations on Syria and Iran. The MKO you mentioned cannot be compared in size to the number of rebels and terrorists opposing Assad in Syria. MKO also enjoyed little support from Iranians, unlike the robust support Syria’s opposition has within the country.”

I did not mention numbers or composition of the forces, I pointed at concepts and occurrences. You said Iranian were united in the face of Saddam, I wished to underline it wasn’t factually true, and wasn’t my point anyway.

“The only foreign forces that invaded Iran overtly was Saddam’s forces. In the case of Syria, the invading forces included those of Turkey, the U.S., Hezbollah, Russia, and even Israel. Some support the regime, others oppose it. Surely, Iran didn’t witness such a situation in the late 80s.”

As I said, Iran was up against an internationally-backed foe armed to the hilt by major western power AND Soviet states, with a virtually infinite credit line by GCC states. The US , France, and the UK also massively backed the country diplomatically as well, so much as to cover Saddam’s use of chemical weapons at the UN and push for an arms embargo on Iran while it was the one being attacked initially, with very few allies not directly intervening to defend it. Quite the irony when you know that the same team comprised of Donald Rumsfeld and his infamous taped handshake with Saddam was one of the architects of the WMD lie and Saddam’s ultimate downfall a couple decades later.

Back to the war: 24 hours after the initial Iraqi invasion, an “alpha strike” counterattack, Operation Kaman 99, was conducted by the Iranian air force. It inflicted massive damage to major Iraqi airfield yet very few aircraft were hit, as they were all flown out and sheltered in neighboring Gulf countries that were out of reach and a military no-go for the Iranians. Plus, they provided virtually infinite funding the Iraqi war effort. The French, US and Russia pretty much replenished the entirety of Iraq air losses on the span of 5 years. Iranian aircraft were regularly harassed and targeted by Gulf air forces, namely one occurrence where the Saudis took down two F-14s. Plus, two major and destructive naval operation were conducted directly by the US against key Iranian oil interests, namely Praying Mantis and Nimble Archer that also badly scarred what remained of the Iranian navy at the time.

If you don’t consider that direct support, I don’t know what it is.

“Iranians were far less fragmented internally. Most (at least 90%) of them supported the war against Saddam and the MKO. This does not mean that they didn’t have any differences, but the divisions among them wasn’t to the extent that they were willing to take up arms against one another.”

I don’t question that. I simply pointed at nuance towards your initial claims. I also said myself that Iranian were “mostly united” at individual level against a common enemy. Khomeini viciously used the patriotic drive to criminally slaughter tens of thousands of political opponents during two major purges in 81 and 88. Those two occurrences are part of what make me also hate the Mullahs ideologically, beyond my geopolitical take that you know.

On the other hand, Syria’s case is quite different. First, there is significant opposition to the Syrian regime. We can see that by the large number of rebels and those who were willing to protest against the regime back in 2011 and 2012.

“So the only point on which we disagree was saying Syria’s and Iran’s case are the same. It would be better to say they share some similarities.”

Point taken, but still, I stand by my philosophical assertion that both countries were economically and militarily devastated in their respective fates at the end of a long protracted and exhausting war that left them without any capacity to respond to many external aggressions.

“Regarding your claim that I am falsely spreading anti-Iran propaganda, I want you to know that I had once being a staunch supporter of the Iranian regime. I did pray for its progress and was really saddened for weeks after the killing of Soleimani. I prayed for Soleimani’s soul and really hated Trump for that. For days, I could not concentrate on my work because I was worried Iran will be attacked by the U.S. I truly looked upon Iran as a heroic Muslim country standing up to the oppressors of Muslims.”

I’m going to surprise you, but for my part always hated Soleimani for the following reasons:
1- He never, ever was recorded mentioning Iran. He ALWAYS referred to Islam. He put his religion largely on top of his nation, which is not the way I see society.
2- During recent protests, he was quoted as saying he would kill any dissident to the last standing man if need be to protect the regime. I cannot possibly support that.
3- That man personally led slaughters of Iranian Kurdish dissident during the 80s, I cannot condone that either in any way.
I hope this makes this clear as the shades of grey of my objective support for Iran as a sovereign nation with interests and rights, but also obligations towards Human Rights that it violated daily. Once more, I want you to recall that my difference with you is that I wish BOTH the KSA and Iran to be stopped in their respective malign machinations destabilizing the region. But I still believe, based on easily obtainable open sources publication, that the House of Saud has been the source of many, many more suffering, destruction and national disintegration that Iran ever did, notwithstanding the two competitors’ agendas in the region.

“Then someone made a claim on one forum that the Soleimani we are mourning once cooperated with the U.S. to kill Sunni Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq. I was shocked by this claim and couldn’t believe it. Then I decided to do some research just to confirm that the guy was wrong. Unfortunately, I turned up plenty of material dated years back, which confirms that Iran worked with the U.S to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.”

Absolutely true. And that shows, as the Iranian say, that “Siasat pedar madar nadareh”. Which literally means that (geo) politics have no mother, or father. I let you deduce the obvious as to its sadly, stone-cold true meaning. The exact same way that the US claims it supports progress, freedom and democracy in the whole world while it has essentially been busy breaking parliamentary and nationalist secular regimes and installing fascist dictatorships, sometime religious sometimes not, everywhere it could during and after the Cold War. Example are plenty, from Latin America to the Middle East and Asia.

“Knowing that war killed over a Million Muslims, most of them Sunnis, I was really angered and hated the Iranian regime more than I ever hated America. Because I believed the Iranian regime was protecting our lives (Sunnis and Shiites), not knowing it was plotting ways for the downfall of Sunni communities to the extent it is willing to cooperate with external powers to kill us.”

The regime pretends it is virtuous yet sows discords both at home and abroad, with interest sometimes aligning with the objective “good” (like defending secular rule and national integrity in Syria) and sometimes not (helping the evil Bush regime.). Same as the GCC. That’s the core of my principal argument.

“I hope now you understand why I hate the Iranian regime so much.”

I do, and I despite them as well as an illegitimate and incompetent regime. But I still do not understand the logic behind your current conclusion. Indeed you seem to know and acknowledge as much as I do that US actions and policies in the region have literally killed millions of Muslims. Iran was occasionally an accomplice to that, and more recently, quite the opposite. It practically helped in saving Iraq and Syria from nihilistic clutches of the worst kind. And you overtly turned from opponent to staunch supporter of the American evil of the worst kind PRECISELY because Iran did the same in your view ? what kind of rationale is that ? you wish what you blame others for doing in the first place, I don’t get that.

Now, despite the arguments you bring on Iran’s misdeeds that I entirely agree on, and also accept the idea that the KSA has broken so many lives and regions all around it by being a US lackey AND a proponent of the most extreme form of political Islam, yet you support the EXACT same kind of abuse if and only if it concerns Iran. You have to realize you now outright support an administration comprised of mad illuminate zealots like the B-team wishing to enact modern-day crusade and erase entire parts of the Middle-East in the process. The same evil that you blame Iran for helping in hostile and murderous campaign of the worst kind against million of Arabs (both muslims and non-muslims, since the entire country was torn apart in the case of Iraq).
I say again : you want one particular evil to prevail against another, and risk destroying tens of millions more lives, both Saudi, and Iranian, in the process. I will never endorse or understand that rationale.

“If you dispute any of the claims regarding Iran’s cooperation with the U.S during the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, we can argue that. I have all the proof you need.”

You don’t need to, I guess you figured it out by now.

The Objective

Good reply. We don’t differ at all. But you made one false accusation: that I support America now.
You are wrong about that. I can never support the murderer of millions of innocents, men, women, and children. The blood of the innocent will catch up with the American nation. They will pay a heavier price they imposed on others. This I have no doubt about. It’s just a matter of time, but it’ll come.
Same goes for any government or people who have soiled their hands with innocent blood, whether the blood of Sunnis, Shiites, Christians, Jews, or anyone else.
I believe what is happening today is leading to a war that will punish humanity for the crimes we ignore when others commit it in our names (our governments). When it’s time to pay, it is not only the government that will pay, but also those who looked the other way and did nothing to stop it.

gryzor84

We indeed seem to be, maybe we just needed enough time and arguments to clarify our views to one another :) I only said the US thing because you appeared at some point to say you literally wish for Trump to be reelected so that he turns the whole region on fire just for the sake of taking down the Iranian regime. This I found unthinkable. But, Now I’m thinking, maybe I confuse you with somebody else on another similar threat. I’m starting to wonder.

The Objective

You are not wrong about that. I don’t know if you have any knowledge of Islamic history, especially about the centuries-old Shiite Sunni divide. The Shiites, led by Iran, are trying to gain control of the holy sites of Islam (Mecca and Madina). You can do your research on this and also observe what Iran’s strategy is leading to. If Iran succeeds in taking over Mecca and Medina through the Shiite populations in the Middle East, Shiism is bound to spread. But Shiism is not Islam. They will succeed in apostatizing hundreds of millions of Muslims around the World. In fact, their attempt to take over these holy sites will unite the entire Sunni Muslim world among them, and I can envision Muslims flocking from Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East, to defend these sites. I will personally join this army. This will lead to the biggest sectarian war ever in Islamic history. You see, true Sunni Muslims can sacrifice anything, but not their faith – especially where Shiism (a more dangerous ideological threat than anything out there) is concerned.

So yes, instead of a Shiite takeover of Islam’s holly sites, I will prefer a bloody regional war ten times over.

Iran can simply abandon this goal. But as long as Iran continues to manipulate its way through to takeover Mecca and Medina, a major regional war will break out at some point. Iran can abandon it by withdrawing its evangelical missions in Sunni countries, and stop supporting proxy forces in countries where a huge Sunni population is present. Like in Iraq, there are Sunnis and Shiites. Same thing in Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Afghanistan. These proxies are predominately Shiites, which gives their mission an evangelical aura. Naturally, Sunnis should be alarmed. I have no problem with a Shiite regime ruling Iran. But I have a problem with its relentless attempts to pollute Sunni believes across the Muslim world through its proxies and other assets.

I pray for a Trump victory because he has demonstrated the willing force Tehran to reconsider this policy. His 12-point demand through Mike Pompeo captures everything the Iranian regime exists for. If Iran refuses to abandon this mission, then I support Trump to start a war that brings down this regime even if it burns the entire Middle East. The Middle East accounts for just 20% of the World’s Muslim population. Besides, not ever country will be involved in the war. Countries like Qatar, Oman, Turkey will support neither site. Even if Iran takes the war to these neutral countries on a sectarian basis, Iran’s missiles cannot wipe out the populations of all these countries. And there is also the fear in Iran of what these countries can collectively do to Iran if they were to unleash their weapons on the Iranian nation.

Believe it or not, this war will likely end with the U.S forces, Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Emirati regimes crushing one another. It may seem wired, but that’ll be a very good outcome for the Muslim world.

So I want Trump to wind so that Iran can choose to either give up its mission and disarm those proxies, or fight a war that collapses the regime. Both outcomes are good for the Sunni Muslim world.

Trump seems willing to take the risk, unlike his Democratic rival. And that makes Trump a better candidate.

gryzor84

Then you are nothing like me, and I stand by all my previous assertion concerning the competition between KSA and Iran, that happen to be two different evils of the same theocratic coin, and none should be allowed to establish dominance on the whole region, would it be at religious, political, or

You merely claim to despise the US for its wicked actions that cost the lives of millions of people, yet you would have no second thought in colluding with the devil himself to destroy yet another people and country, this time Persians. Besides you’ll note my emphasis on “people”, like Arabs and Afghans, rather than “Muslims”, as I do not like or share your views essentially categorizing and considering people based on sectarian lines, or theorizing a whole rationale based on religion alone, like you do with Mecca “that has to be saved from evil Shiism/Iran”, supposedly. You make far-reaching and arbitrary assertion of what lies behind each country’s agenda, and push forward your sectarian preference in all conclusions. I really doubt you ever supported Iran the way you claim considering how wide-ranging and structured is your universal hatred of that country and regime that you want to see gone altogether in the fires of hell.

And as I said before, by opting for that approach, you consistently remain oblivious to which “camp” has actually been inflicting more damage to the region and its people. You constantly claim that the Shiites kill Sunnis, while the opposite has also been massively true all over the world. There is no side to take, no decisive victory to hope between any of those evils. I will NEVER choose between two kind of hatred, or hateful ideologies. In the meantime, some kind of “cold entente” is the best balance of power one could hope for, short of a definitive, more ideal , long-lasting political solution to current issues.

I am in favor of the nullification of religious rule in general, that have been at the roots of the worst kind of nihilistic backwardness every time they have found their way at the top of a given state, no matter if they are Jewish (Zionism), Christian (The crusades and the Inquisition), or Muslim (do I need to retell everything on Sunni or Shiite extremism ?) and it has to stop. The KSA must not be given free hand to export Salafism even more than it does, nor should it be allowed to kinetically reduce other weaker neighboring countries like Yemen to rubble along with their poor people. Same goes of Iran, of which while I continue to observe a difference in its methods and treatment of people around that do less harm than the kinetic approches of the KSA, I still oppose in full when I see what they do in against their own people in a contexte where they reign supreme.

No distinction between unrestrained Shiite or Sunni powers,as they both are obscurantist ideologies stuck in time that will hold back the people under their rule for as long as they are left unchecked. But if there is to be an uprising, it WILL have to come from within, their own society, their own people, not some opportunistic foreign power using the context to gain traction in its dark design, like the American Deep State.

Your take is inconsistent at best, and its religious component predominates and outweighs rationality and objective thinking. In that regard, you and I will forever be apart.

Still, I respect the sincerity of your remarks, at least you clearly affirm what you are, hope and pray for, no matter how harsh or violent those wishes are, unlike many that hide behind fake virtues to push forward their real, unspoken desires.

gryzor84

hen you are nothing like me, and I stand by all my previous assertion concerning the competition between KSA and Iran, that happen to be two different evils of the same theocratic coin, and none should be allowed to establish dominance on the whole region, would it be at religious, political, or
You merely claim to despise the US for its wicked actions that cost the lives of millions of people, yet you would have no second thought in colluding with the devil himself to destroy yet another people and country, this time Persians. Besides you’ll note my emphasis on “people”, like Arabs and Afghans, rather than “Muslims”, as I do not like or share your views essentially categorizing and considering people based on sectarian lines, or theorizing a whole rationale based on religion alone, like you do with Mecca “that has to be saved from evil Shiism/Iran”, supposedly. You make far-reaching and arbitrary assertion of what lies behind each country’s agenda, and push forward your sectarian preference in all conclusions. I really doubt you ever supported Iran the way you claim considering how wide-ranging and structured is your universal hatred of that country and regime that you want to see gone altogether in the fires of hell.
And as I said before, by opting for that approach, you consistently remain oblivious to which “camp” has actually been inflicting more damage to the region and its people. You constantly claim that the Shiites kill Sunnis, while the opposite has also been massively true all over the world. There is no side to take, no decisive victory to hope between any of those evils. I will NEVER choose between two kind of hatred, or hateful ideologies. In the meantime, some kind of “cold entente” is the best balance of power one could hope for, short of a definitive, more ideal , long-lasting political solution to current issues.
I am in favor of the nullification of religious rule in general, that have been at the roots of the worst kind of nihilistic backwardness every time they have found their way at the top of a given state, no matter if they are Jewish (Zionism), Christian (The crusades and the Inquisition), or Muslim (do I need to retell everything on Sunni or Shiite extremism ?) and it has to stop. The KSA must not be given free hand to export Salafism even more than it does, nor should it be allowed to kinetically reduce other weaker neighboring countries like Yemen to rubble along with their poor people. Same goes of Iran, of which while I continue to observe a difference in its methods and treatment of people around that do less harm than the kinetic approches of the KSA, I still oppose in full when I see what they do in against their own people in a contexte where they reign supreme.
No distinction between unrestrained Shiite or Sunni powers,as they both are obscurantist ideologies stuck in time that will hold back the people under their rule for as long as they are left unchecked. But if there is to be an uprising, it WILL have to come from within, their own society, their own people, not some opportunistic foreign power using the context to gain traction in its dark design, like the American Deep State.
Your take is inconsistent at best, and its religious component predominates and outweighs rationality and objective thinking. In that regard, you and I will forever be apart.
Still, I respect the sincerity of your remarks, at least you clearly affirm what you are, hope and pray for, no matter how harsh or violent those wishes are, unlike many that hide behind fake virtues to push forward their real, unspoken desires.

The Objective

You are a non-Muslim, or a secular one. I am not in favor of abolishing religious rule. Islam never brought any kind of backwardness. Look up history regarding the immense contribution of Muslim scholars to the modern Science you are so proud of, especially in the fields of Medicine, Mathematics, Chemistry. Do an objective research on this because you are clearly misinformed about history. I am not going to argue with you regarding what Islam can do for the world. You should do your own research on how Islam transformed a large part of the world and made the weak Arabs the dominant world power for centuries, defeating established powers such as Persia, Byzantine, Roman, Chinese, and all other empires of the time. A backward ideology cannot achieve such success. It is the Muslims that have become weak in practicing their faith. Today’s Muslims are nowhere near their ancient counterparts.

I no longer have the strength to continue this argument. From now on, I’ll only recommend sources to you and make few comments. For starters, read anything of interest here. And don’t forget Shiites barely make up 15% of the world’s Muslims, their highest. normally, they don’t make up to 5% of the Muslim population. And again, Shiism is not Islam.

https://mahajjah.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/UMS-UPDATED-FINAL.pdf

About Iran’s intention for the Middle East and Muslim world, read anything that looks credible under this google search and do your own research:

https://www.google.com/search?q=iran+khomeini+%22exporting+the+revolution%22&oq=iran+khomeini+%22exporting+the+revolution%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.19245j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

gryzor84

Rest assured, I’m tired of going in circles with you on matters we will forever be in disagreement on. This is my final reply on the matter.

All I have left to say is that if you are still, in this day and age, in favor of a theocratic governing structures anywhere on the planet, and so despite all available historical and empirical data and hard facts demonstrating it always, without exception, at the very least holds back social progress and science and in all other cases it brings some form of tyranny, and leads to war, death and misery, no matter where it takes place, then I’m afraid you are part of the problem, as this mindset is precisely what keeps corruption and hypocrisy in place and de-facto legitimized on top of powerful nations today, and allows them to pose as God’s representatives on Earth and preach his word around the way they like to cover their many absolutely non-pious interests and agendas, and ultimately just dominate the people by their iron fist consolidating their seat with scriptures they interpret with a calculated bias.

I am not against religion in general. I simply don’t want it to rule entire people. Non-governing religious institutions do exist in secular republics to allow pious people to practice , celebrate and learn about their religion, yes. Yet, nobody should be entitled to speak and enforce the word of God on entire populations, that will never make no sense in a civilized world. Self-proclaimed representatives of God, would they be Iranians, Saudis, Israelis, Americans, Asians , Africans or European, are NOT fit for preaching their own ways over millions of other people.

Religion and one’s relationship to God is a personal, private one. It must not cross the boundaries of power institutions. Today’s leaders are just as weak and corrupt as the ordinary people whom you say are responsible for their society’s downfall.

You say “Shiism is not Islam”, that alone again shows how harshly you’re encamping on sectarian doctrine that outweighs nations, and people. You systematically think based on adversarial postures. That’s what leads to to collide with one of the most corrupt and destructives contemporary policies on Earth (US Imperialism) in order for one of the most backwards ideologies and societies on the same Earth (Saudi Arabia) to score a point against another terribly backwards religious House (Iran) that you do not like.

You choose one evil over the another and even accept (and pretty much demand) “fire everywhere” per you own wording, I will say again and again, this is tragic and unacceptable, and I have an ounce of power to prevent it, I will do it. People’s livelihood must be preserved from the hateful and murderous fires of modern religious crusades that you advocate. 70 millions of Iranian do not deserved to be punished by ill-wishing Saudi or American hands just because some people like you believe their “grand hidden design” are bad for Islam.

You openly wish for total chaos and war to achieve religious objectives, this is backwards, crusade-like thinking and I’m not surprised. You proudly endorse entities that you know has already cost the lives of millions of “Muslims” as you like to point out, just because in your view it’s the Iranians turn to die, somehow. It is exactly the kind of apocalyptic vision that has plagued the planet and killed millions of innocents because of religious confrontations. You have your very own version of ISIS and AQ’s “Chastise the miscreants” without even realizing.

What I care about is not the “golden age” of Islam that occurred centuries ago. Yes it contributed a lot to the global advancement of mankind at the time but it wasn’t *thanks* but *in spite of* religion. And ironically, Persians that you murderously despise so much for being treacherous Shiites, actually contributed hugely to existing levels of architecture, medicine, maths and astronomy you so proudly associate with “Arab Sunni Islam”. Individuals and contributions were plenty and are recognized as such by history. Persian lifted the Arab world up culturally and technically after being absorbed post-invasions, even amended the alphabet and grammar over the couple centuries that followed the initial takeover and ultimately reverse most of the Arab territorial gains over their country when the Abbassides came to power.

There is the wikipedia passage I quoted from this page :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia

“Arab Muslims conquests have been variously seen in Iran: by some as a blessing, the advent of the true faith, the end of the age of ignorance and heathenism; by others as a humiliating national defeat, the conquest and subjugation of the country by foreign invaders. Both perceptions are of course valid, depending on one’s angle of vision… Iran was indeed Islamized, but it was not Arabized. Persians remained Persians. And after an interval of silence, Iran reemerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam, eventually adding a new element even to Islam itself. Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna”

Now all of the above is the distant past. Fast forward centuries later, religious government wherever they are actively try to contain and prevent progress both at social AND scientific levels, and there’s not denying that. Wherever GCC-aligned paramilitaries as much as ISIS rush to destroy Museum and burn libraries, criminalize non-religious schools and teaching, make Sharia Law the Constitution. Just like in Afghanistan, their culture died, and time pretty much stopped after the US/Saudi-Supported Taliban prevailed.

You speak of the past to justify the present, I do not subscribe to that assertion.

I can also list you the endless list of crimes both internal and abroad of Saudi Arabia through a Google link here : https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+execution&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjcjOWuxobrAhVB4BoKHQoYAZEQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=saudi+execution&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQEzIECAAQEzIECAAQEzIECAAQEzIECAAQEzIICAAQBRAeEBMyCAgAEAgQHhATMggIABAIEB4QEzIICAAQCBAeEBMyCAgAEAgQHhATOgQIIxAnOgIIADoECAAQHlCrywJY1doCYKHbAmgAcAB4AYABf4gBkQSSAQM5LjGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=mvMrX9zXIsHAa4qwhIgJ&bih=947&biw=1920#imgrc=ht49Fp8ZOYccVM

I have many, many other to provide as their list of abuses is quite ample and well-documented.
And yes, Iran has done the same every once in a while. Again, unlike you, I oppose BOTH rules.

Yet this is not going to convince you of anything, as you are too deeply entrenched in sectarian and religious mindset in general, it is unfit for rational thinking I’m afraid.

I wish a “cold entente” between the regional power, so that their respective people have the time and space to gradually amend their own societies from within. Not total war between their leaders that further destroys whatever hope they had of coming together as PEOPLE and not opposed RELIGIOUS HOUSES.

I do not have any more time to spend on this, if you wish to continue, please pick another participant. Our view are irreconcilable at political, existential and even philosophical levels, it is pointless to continue arguing.

Let’s simply agree to disagree.

gryzor84

Rest assured, I’m tired of going in circles with you on matters we will forever be in disagreement on. This is my final reply on the matter.
All I have left to say is that if you are still, in this day and age, in favor of a theocratic governing structures anywhere on the planet, and so despite all available historical and empirical data and hard facts demonstrating it always, without exception, at the very least holds back social progress and science and in all other cases it brings some form of tyranny, and leads to war, death and misery, no matter where it takes place, then I’m afraid you are part of the problem, as this mindset is precisely what keeps corruption and hypocrisy in place and de-facto legitimized on top of powerful nations today, and allows them to pose as God’s representatives on Earth and preach his word around the way they like to cover their many absolutely non-pious interests and agendas, and ultimately just dominate the people by their iron fist consolidating their seat with scriptures they interpret with a calculated bias.
I am not against religion in general. I simply don’t want it to rule entire people. Non-governing religious institutions do exist in secular republics to allow pious people to practice , celebrate and learn about their religion, yes. Yet, nobody should be entitled to speak and enforce the word of God on entire populations, that will never make no sense in a civilized world. Self-proclaimed representatives of God, would they be Iranians, Saudis, Israelis, Americans, Asians , Africans or European, are NOT fit for preaching their own ways over millions of other people.
Religion and one’s relationship to God is a personal, private one. It must not cross the boundaries of power institutions. Today’s leaders are just as weak and corrupt as the ordinary people whom you say are responsible for their society’s downfall.
You say “Shiism is not Islam”, that alone again shows how harshly you’re encamping on sectarian doctrine that outweighs nations, and people. You systematically think based on adversarial postures. That’s what leads to to collide with one of the most corrupt and destructives contemporary policies on Earth (US Imperialism) in order for one of the most backwards ideologies and societies on the same Earth (Saudi Arabia) to score a point against another terribly backwards religious House (Iran) that you do not like.
You choose one evil over the another and even accept (and pretty much demand) “fire everywhere” per you own wording, I will say again and again, this is tragic and unacceptable, and I have an ounce of power to prevent it, I will do it. People’s livelihood must be preserved from the hateful and murderous fires of modern religious crusades that you advocate. 70 millions of Iranian do not deserved to be punished by ill-wishing Saudi or American hands just because some people like you believe their “grand hidden design” are bad for Islam.
You openly wish for total chaos and war to achieve religious objectives, this is backwards, crusade-like thinking and I’m not surprised. You proudly endorse entities that you know has already cost the lives of millions of “Muslims” as you like to point out, just because in your view it’s the Iranians turn to die, somehow. It is exactly the kind of apocalyptic vision that has plagued the planet and killed millions of innocents because of religious confrontations. You have your very own version of ISIS and AQ’s “Chastise the miscreants” without even realizing.
What I care about is not the “golden age” of Islam that occurred centuries ago. Yes it contributed a lot to the global advancement of mankind at the time but it wasn’t *thanks* but *in spite of* religion. And ironically, Persians that you murderously despise so much for being treacherous Shiites, actually contributed hugely to existing levels of architecture, medicine, maths and astronomy you so proudly associate with “Arab Sunni Islam”. Individuals and contributions were plenty and are recognized as such by history. Persian lifted the Arab world up culturally and technically after being absorbed post-invasions, even amended the alphabet and grammar over the couple centuries that followed the initial takeover and ultimately reverse most of the Arab territorial gains over their country when the Abbassides came to power.
There is the wikipedia passage I quoted from this page :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wi
“Arab Muslims conquests have been variously seen in Iran: by some as a blessing, the advent of the true faith, the end of the age of ignorance and heathenism; by others as a humiliating national defeat, the conquest and subjugation of the country by foreign invaders. Both perceptions are of course valid, depending on one’s angle of vision… Iran was indeed Islamized, but it was not Arabized. Persians remained Persians. And after an interval of silence, Iran reemerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam, eventually adding a new element even to Islam itself. Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna”
Now all of the above is the distant past. Fast forward centuries later, religious government wherever they are actively try to contain and prevent progress both at social AND scientific levels, and there’s not denying that. Wherever GCC-aligned paramilitaries as much as ISIS rush to destroy Museum and burn libraries, criminalize non-religious schools and teaching, make Sharia Law the Constitution. Just like in Afghanistan, their culture died, and time pretty much stopped after the US/Saudi-Supported Taliban prevailed.
You speak of the past to justify the present, I do not subscribe to that assertion.
I can also list you the endless list of crimes both internal and abroad of Saudi Arabia through a Google link here :

https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+human+rights+abuses&sxsrf=ALeKk01LMLGgdDvpwTSe0yvAq1jjh3Pn7g:1596717011210&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr5YmyyobrAhUpzIUKHejrBPoQ_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Or there :
https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+arabia+support+terrorism&sxsrf=ALeKk00KOsw4OW6iqCnydCO9_tja2TuANA:1596716725572&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ3O-pyYbrAhVT3IUKHVtrCt4Q_AUoAnoECA0QBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Using a “Google Search” feature by feeding it a specific wording that supports your narrative is meaningless as a viable argument, as thousands if not millions of publications worldwide will always be there to support your assertions or mine depending on where you choose to look.

And yes, Iran has done the same every once in a while. Again, unlike you, I oppose BOTH rules.
Yet this is not going to convince you of anything, as you are too deeply entrenched in sectarian and religious mindset in general, it is unfit for rational thinking I’m afraid.
I wish a “cold entente” between the regional power, so that their respective people have the time and space to gradually amend their own societies from within. Not total war between their leaders that further destroys whatever hope they had of coming together as PEOPLE and not opposed RELIGIOUS HOUSES.
I do not have any more time to spend on this, if you wish to continue, please pick another participant. Our view are irreconcilable at political, existential and even philosophical levels, it is pointless to continue arguing.
Let’s simply agree to disagree.

gryzor84

I’ve done my own research, and my data contradicts yours in a plethora of respects as I pointed out here. I need no classes from you, thank you very much.

And rest assured, I too am tired of going in circles with you on matters we will forever be in disagreement on. This is my final reply on the matter.
All I have left to say is that if you are still, in this day and age, in favor of a theocratic governing structures anywhere on the planet, and so despite all available historical and empirical data and hard facts demonstrating it always, without exception, at the very least holds back social progress and science and in all other cases it brings some form of tyranny, and leads to war, death and misery, no matter where it takes place, then I’m afraid you are part of the problem, as this mindset is precisely what keeps corruption and hypocrisy in place and de-facto legitimized on top of powerful nations today, and allows them to pose as God’s representatives on Earth and preach his word around the way they like to cover their many absolutely non-pious interests and agendas, and ultimately just dominate the people by their iron fist consolidating their seat with scriptures they interpret with a calculated bias.

I am not against religion in general. I simply don’t want it to rule entire people. Non-governing religious institutions do exist in secular republics to allow pious people to practice, celebrate and learn about their religion, yes. Yet, nobody should be entitled to speak and enforce the word of God on entire populations. That will never make any sense in a civilized world. Self-proclaimed representatives of God, would they be Iranians, Saudis, Israelis, Americans, Asians , Africans or European, are NOT fit for preaching their own ways over millions of other people.

Religion and one’s relationship to God is a personal, private one. It must not cross the boundaries of power institutions. Today’s leaders are just as weak and corrupt as the ordinary people whom you say are responsible for their society’s downfall.
You say “Shiism is not Islam”, that alone again shows how harshly you’re encamping on sectarian doctrine that outweighs nations, and people. You systematically think based on adversarial postures. That’s what leads to to collide with one of the most corrupt and destructives contemporary policies on Earth (US Imperialism) in order for one of the most backwards ideologies and societies on the same Earth (Saudi Arabia) to score a point against another terribly backwards religious House (Iran) that you do not like.
You choose one evil over the another and even accept (and pretty much demand) “fire everywhere” per you own wording, I will say again and again, this is tragic and unacceptable, and I have an ounce of power to prevent it, I will do it. People’s livelihood must be preserved from the hateful and murderous fires of modern religious crusades that you advocate. 70 millions of Iranian do not deserved to be punished by ill-wishing Saudi or American hands just because some people like you believe their “grand hidden design” are bad for Islam.

You openly wish for total chaos and war to achieve religious objectives, this is backwards, crusade-like thinking and I’m not surprised. You proudly endorse entities that you know has already cost the lives of millions of “Muslims” as you like to point out, just because in your view it’s the Iranians turn to die, somehow. It is exactly the kind of apocalyptic vision that has plagued the planet and killed millions of innocents because of religious confrontations. You have your very own version of ISIS and AQ’s “Chastise the miscreants” without even realizing.

What I care about is not the “golden age” of Islam that occurred centuries ago. Yes it contributed a lot to the global advancement of mankind at the time but it wasn’t *thanks* but *in spite of* religion. And ironically, Persians that you murderously despise so much for being treacherous Shiites, actually contributed hugely to existing levels of architecture, medicine, maths and astronomy you so proudly associate with “Arab Sunni Islam”. Individuals and contributions were plenty and are recognized as such by history. Persian lifted the Arab world up culturally and technically after being absorbed post-invasions, even amended the alphabet and grammar over the couple centuries that followed the initial takeover and ultimately reverse most of the Arab territorial gains over their country when the Abbassides came to power.
There is the wikipedia passage I quoted from this page :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia

“Arab Muslims conquests have been variously seen in Iran: by some as a blessing, the advent of the true faith, the end of the age of ignorance and heathenism; by others as a humiliating national defeat, the conquest and subjugation of the country by foreign invaders. Both perceptions are of course valid, depending on one’s angle of vision… Iran was indeed Islamized, but it was not Arabized. Persians remained Persians. And after an interval of silence, Iran reemerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam, eventually adding a new element even to Islam itself. Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna”

Now all of the above is the distant past. Fast forward centuries later, religious government wherever they are actively try to contain and prevent progress both at social AND scientific levels, and there’s not denying that. Wherever GCC-aligned paramilitaries as much as ISIS rush to destroy Museum and burn libraries, criminalize non-religious schools and teaching, make Sharia Law the Constitution. Just like in Afghanistan, their culture died, and time pretty much stopped after the US/Saudi-Supported Taliban prevailed.

You speak of the past to justify the present, I do not subscribe to that assertion.
I can also list you the endless list of crimes both internal and abroad of Saudi Arabia through a Google link here :

https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+human+rights+abuses&sxsrf=ALeKk01LMLGgdDvpwTSe0yvAq1jjh3Pn7g:1596717011210&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr5YmyyobrAhUpzIUKHejrBPoQ_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Or there :
https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+arabia+support+terrorism&sxsrf=ALeKk00KOsw4OW6iqCnydCO9_tja2TuANA:1596716725572&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ3O-pyYbrAhVT3IUKHVtrCt4Q_AUoAnoECA0QBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Using a “Google Search” feature by feeding it a specific wording that supports your narrative is meaningless as a viable argument, as thousands if not millions of publications worldwide will always be there to support your assertions or mine depending on where you choose to look.

And yes, Iran has done the same every once in a while. Again, unlike you, I oppose BOTH rules.

Yet this is not going to convince you of anything, as you are too deeply entrenched in sectarian and religious mindset in general, it is unfit for rational thinking I’m afraid.
I wish a “cold entente” between the regional power, so that their respective people have the time and space to gradually amend their own societies from within. Not total war between their leaders that further destroys whatever hope they had of coming together as PEOPLE and not opposed RELIGIOUS HOUSES. The world should go past those fractures, once and for all. Every country that has let go of religion as a governing body has skyrocketed past the contemporary Muslim World today. There is a reason why today’s poorest nation are also the most pious. Of course there is a million other parameters, Western colonialism and economic coercion but they don’t explain why even the richest theocracies aren’t anywhere near their non-muslim counterparts when it comes to industrial or scientific prowess.

I do not have any more time to spend on this, if you wish to continue, please pick another participant. Our view are irreconcilable at political, existential and even philosophical levels, it is pointless to continue arguing.

Let’s simply agree to disagree.

gryzor84

Rest assured, I’m tired of going in circles with you on matters we will forever be in disagreement on. This is my final reply on the matter.

All I have left to say is that if you are still, in this day and age, in favor of a theocratic governing structures anywhere on the planet, and so despite all available historical and empirical data and hard facts demonstrating it always, without exception, at the very least holds back social progress and science and in all other cases it brings some form of tyranny, and leads to war, death and misery, no matter where it takes place, then I’m afraid you are part of the problem, as this mindset is precisely what keeps corruption and hypocrisy in place and de-facto legitimized on top of powerful nations today, and allows them to pose as God’s representatives on Earth and preach his word around the way they like to cover their many absolutely non-pious interests and agendas, and ultimately just dominate the people by their iron fist consolidating their seat with scriptures they interpret with a calculated bias.

I am not against religion in general. I simply don’t want it to rule entire people. Non-governing religious institutions do exist in secular republics to allow pious people to practice, celebrate and learn about their religion, yes. Yet, nobody should be entitled to speak and enforce the word of God on entire populations. That will never make any sense in a civilized world. Self-proclaimed representatives of God, would they be Iranians, Saudis, Israelis, Americans, Asians , Africans or European, are NOT fit for preaching their own ways over millions of other people.

Religion and one’s relationship to God is a personal, private one. It must not cross the boundaries of power institutions. Today’s leaders are just as weak and corrupt as the ordinary people whom you say are responsible for their society’s downfall.
You say “Shiism is not Islam”, that alone again shows how harshly you’re encamping on sectarian doctrine that outweighs nations, and people. You systematically think based on adversarial postures. That’s what leads to to collide with one of the most corrupt and destructives contemporary policies on Earth (US Imperialism) in order for one of the most backwards ideologies and societies on the same Earth (Saudi Arabia) to score a point against another terribly backwards religious House (Iran) that you do not like.

You choose one evil over the another and even accept (and pretty much demand) “fire everywhere” per you own wording, I will say again and again, this is tragic and unacceptable, and I have an ounce of power to prevent it, I will do it. People’s livelihood must be preserved from the hateful and murderous fires of modern religious crusades that you advocate. 70 millions of Iranian do not deserved to be punished by ill-wishing Saudi or American hands just because some people like you believe their “grand hidden design” are bad for Islam.

You openly wish for total chaos and war to achieve religious objectives, this is backwards, crusade-like thinking and I’m not surprised. You proudly endorse entities that you know has already cost the lives of millions of “Muslims” as you like to point out, just because in your view it’s the Iranians turn to die, somehow. It is exactly the kind of apocalyptic vision that has plagued the planet and killed millions of innocents because of religious confrontations. You have your very own version of ISIS and AQ’s “Chastise the miscreants” without even realizing.

What I care about is not the “golden age” of Islam that occurred centuries ago. Yes it contributed a lot to the global advancement of mankind at the time but it wasn’t *thanks* but *in spite of* religion. And ironically, Persians that you murderously despise so much for being treacherous Shiites, actually contributed hugely to existing levels of architecture, medicine, maths and astronomy you so proudly associate with “Arab Sunni Islam”. Individuals and contributions were plenty and are recognized as such by history. Persian lifted the Arab world up culturally and technically after being absorbed post-invasions, even amended the alphabet and grammar over the couple centuries that followed the initial takeover and ultimately reverse most of the Arab territorial gains over their country when the Abbassides came to power.
There is the wikipedia passage I quoted from this page :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia

“Arab Muslims conquests have been variously seen in Iran: by some as a blessing, the advent of the true faith, the end of the age of ignorance and heathenism; by others as a humiliating national defeat, the conquest and subjugation of the country by foreign invaders. Both perceptions are of course valid, depending on one’s angle of vision… Iran was indeed Islamized, but it was not Arabized. Persians remained Persians. And after an interval of silence, Iran reemerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam, eventually adding a new element even to Islam itself. Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna”

Now all of the above is the distant past. Fast forward centuries later, religious government wherever they are actively try to contain and prevent progress both at social AND scientific levels, and there’s not denying that. Wherever GCC-aligned paramilitaries as much as ISIS rush to destroy Museum and burn libraries, criminalize non-religious schools and teaching, make Sharia Law the Constitution. Just like in Afghanistan, their culture died, and time pretty much stopped after the US/Saudi-Supported Taliban prevailed.

You speak of the past to justify the present, I do not subscribe to that assertion.
I can also list you the endless list of crimes both internal and abroad of Saudi Arabia through a Google link here :

https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+human+rights+abuses&sxsrf=ALeKk01LMLGgdDvpwTSe0yvAq1jjh3Pn7g:1596717011210&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr5YmyyobrAhUpzIUKHejrBPoQ_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Or there :
https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+arabia+support+terrorism&sxsrf=ALeKk00KOsw4OW6iqCnydCO9_tja2TuANA:1596716725572&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ3O-pyYbrAhVT3IUKHVtrCt4Q_AUoAnoECA0QBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Using a “Google Search” feature by feeding it a specific wording that supports your narrative is meaningless as a viable argument, as thousands if not millions of publications worldwide will always be there to support your assertions or mine depending on where you choose to look.

And yes, Iran has done the same every once in a while. Again, unlike you, I oppose BOTH rules.

Yet this is not going to convince you of anything, as you are too deeply entrenched in sectarian and religious mindset in general, it is unfit for rational thinking I’m afraid.

I wish a “cold entente” between the regional power, so that their respective people have the time and space to gradually amend their own societies from within. Not total war between their leaders that further destroys whatever hope they had of coming together as PEOPLE and not opposed RELIGIOUS HOUSES. The world should go past those fractures, once and for all. Every country that has let go of religion as a governing body has skyrocketed past the contemporary Muslim World today. There is a reason why today’s poorest nation are also the most pious. Of course there is a million other parameters, Western colonialism and economic coercion but they don’t explain why even the richest theocracies aren’t anywhere near their non-muslim counterparts when it comes to industrial or scientific prowess.

I do not have any more time to spend on this, if you wish to continue, please pick another participant. Our view are irreconcilable at political, existential and even philosophical levels, it is pointless to continue arguing.

Let’s simply agree to disagree. You should take your own advice and do further research into rigorist Islam the way it has been shoved upon the mouths of Saudi citizen, namely its women, but not only there. Basically anywhere Sharia is Law.

gryzor84

Rest assured, I’m tired of going in circles with you on matters we will forever be in disagreement on. This is my final reply on the matter.

All I have left to say is that if you are still, in this day and age, in favor of a theocratic governing structures anywhere on the planet, and so despite all available historical and empirical data and hard facts demonstrating it always, without exception, at the very least holds back social progress and science and in all other cases it brings some form of tyranny, and leads to war, death and misery, no matter where it takes place, then I’m afraid you are part of the problem, as this mindset is precisely what keeps corruption and hypocrisy in place and de-facto legitimized on top of powerful nations today, and allows them to pose as God’s representatives on Earth and preach his word around the way they like to cover their many absolutely non-pious interests and agendas, and ultimately just dominate the people by their iron fist consolidating their seat with scriptures they interpret with a calculated bias.

I am not against religion in general. I simply don’t want it to rule entire people. Non-governing religious institutions do exist in secular republics to allow pious people to practice, celebrate and learn about their religion, yes. Yet, nobody should be entitled to speak and enforce the word of God on entire populations. That will never make any sense in a civilized world. Self-proclaimed representatives of God, would they be Iranians, Saudis, Israelis, Americans, Asians , Africans or European, are NOT fit for preaching their own ways over millions of other people.

Religion and one’s relationship to God is a personal, private one. It must not cross the boundaries of power institutions. Today’s leaders are just as weak and corrupt as the ordinary people whom you say are responsible for their society’s downfall.

You say “Shiism is not Islam”, that alone again shows how harshly you’re encamping on sectarian doctrine that outweighs nations, and people. You systematically think based on adversarial postures. That’s what leads to to collide with one of the most corrupt and destructives contemporary policies on Earth (US Imperialism) in order for one of the most backwards ideologies and societies on the same Earth (Saudi Arabia) to score a point against another terribly backwards religious House (Iran) that you do not like.
You choose one evil over the another and even accept (and pretty much demand) “fire everywhere” per you own wording, I will say again and again, this is tragic and unacceptable, and I have an ounce of power to prevent it, I will do it. People’s livelihood must be preserved from the hateful and murderous fires of modern religious crusades that you advocate. 70 millions of Iranian do not deserved to be punished by ill-wishing Saudi or American hands just because some people like you believe their “grand hidden design” are bad for Islam.

You openly wish for total chaos and war to achieve religious objectives, this is backwards, crusade-like thinking and I’m not surprised. You proudly endorse entities that you know has already cost the lives of millions of “Muslims” as you like to point out, just because in your view it’s the Iranians turn to die, somehow. It is exactly the kind of apocalyptic vision that has plagued the planet and killed millions of innocents because of religious confrontations. You have your very own version of ISIS and AQ’s “Chastise the miscreants” without even realizing.

What I care about is not the “golden age” of Islam that occurred centuries ago. Yes it contributed a lot to the global advancement of mankind at the time but it wasn’t *thanks* but *in spite of* religion. And ironically, Persians that you murderously despise so much for being treacherous Shiites, actually contributed hugely to existing levels of architecture, medicine, maths and astronomy you so proudly associate with “Arab Sunni Islam”. Individuals and contributions were plenty and are recognized as such by history. Persian lifted the Arab world up culturally and technically after being absorbed post-invasions, even amended the alphabet and grammar over the couple centuries that followed the initial takeover and ultimately reverse most of the Arab territorial gains over their country when the Abbassides came to power.
There is the wikipedia passage I quoted from this page :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Persia

“Arab Muslims conquests have been variously seen in Iran: by some as a blessing, the advent of the true faith, the end of the age of ignorance and heathenism; by others as a humiliating national defeat, the conquest and subjugation of the country by foreign invaders. Both perceptions are of course valid, depending on one’s angle of vision… Iran was indeed Islamized, but it was not Arabized. Persians remained Persians. And after an interval of silence, Iran reemerged as a separate, different and distinctive element within Islam, eventually adding a new element even to Islam itself. Culturally, politically, and most remarkable of all even religiously, the Iranian contribution to this new Islamic civilization is of immense importance. The work of Iranians can be seen in every field of cultural endeavor, including Arabic poetry, to which poets of Iranian origin composing their poems in Arabic made a very significant contribution. In a sense, Iranian Islam is a second advent of Islam itself, a new Islam sometimes referred to as Islam-i Ajam. It was this Persian Islam, rather than the original Arab Islam, that was brought to new areas and new peoples: to the Turks, first in Central Asia and then in the Middle East in the country which came to be called Turkey, and of course to India. The Ottoman Turks brought a form of Iranian civilization to the walls of Vienna”

Now all of the above is the distant past. Fast forward centuries later, religious government wherever they are actively try to contain and prevent progress both at social AND scientific levels, and there’s not denying that. Wherever GCC-aligned paramilitaries as much as ISIS rush to destroy Museum and burn libraries, criminalize non-religious schools and teaching, make Sharia Law the Constitution. Just like in Afghanistan, their culture died, and time pretty much stopped after the US/Saudi-Supported Taliban prevailed. Same in Pakistan and India where sectarian rife is eating societies alive from within incessantly provoking mutual aggression against one another and deadly turf within their own. Same with every Muslim theocracy ruling African nations. Today you cannot name me ONE country living under religious rule that is actually free of social and/or economic hurdles. Saudi Arabia is a backwards country still crucifying people, amputating limbs and performing beheading by the hundred each year, it is wasting away hundreds of billions of dollars worth of oil-money and is experiencing rising poverty as well, unthinkable considering the amount of wealth they poor in religious wars abroad. Same with Asian countries like Malaysia, where women are practically sub-human and are nothing in the face of law without a husband, to name only that.

You speak of the past to justify the present, I do not subscribe to that assertion.
I can also list you the endless list of crimes both internal and abroad of Saudi Arabia through a Google link here :

https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+human+rights+abuses&sxsrf=ALeKk01LMLGgdDvpwTSe0yvAq1jjh3Pn7g:1596717011210&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr5YmyyobrAhUpzIUKHejrBPoQ_AUoAnoECAwQBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Or there :
https://www.google.com/search?q=saudi+arabia+support+terrorism&sxsrf=ALeKk00KOsw4OW6iqCnydCO9_tja2TuANA:1596716725572&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJ3O-pyYbrAhVT3IUKHVtrCt4Q_AUoAnoECA0QBA&biw=1920&bih=947

Using a “Google Search” feature by feeding it a specific wording that supports your narrative is meaningless as a viable argument, as thousands if not millions of publications worldwide will always be there to support your assertions or mine depending on where you choose to look.

And yes, Iran has done the same every once in a while. Again, unlike you, I oppose BOTH rules.

Yet this is not going to convince you of anything, as you are too deeply entrenched in sectarian and religious mindset in general, it is unfit for rational thinking I’m afraid.
I wish a “cold entente” between the regional power, so that their respective people have the time and space to gradually amend their own societies from within. Not total war between their leaders that further destroys whatever hope they had of coming together as PEOPLE and not opposed RELIGIOUS HOUSES. The world should go past those fractures, once and for all. Every country that has let go of religion as a governing body has skyrocketed past the contemporary Muslim World today. There is a reason why today’s poorest nation are also the most pious. Of course there is a million other parameters, Western colonialism and economic coercion but they don’t explain why even the richest theocracies aren’t anywhere near their non-muslim counterparts when it comes to industrial or scientific prowess. All theocracies governed by religion (Muslim or otherwise) are technically backwards today, that is simply, sad fact.

I do not have any more time to spend on this, if you wish to continue, please pick another participant. Our view are irreconcilable at political, existential and even philosophical levels, it is pointless to continue arguing.

Let’s simply agree to disagree.

gryzor84

All empires in the history of Mankind so far have risen and fallen, with or without Islam or religion involved,and a million factors made the Arab world reach its Golden Age, Islam being merely one of them. Please, try to go beyond the sole scope of your dated and anachronistic theological prism in every step of your constructs of the world, as you currently miss a lot of important layers and dimensions comprising the complexities of its main flashpoints.

Besides, the Persians that you despise so much as to pray for their possible genocide along with a region on fire today are actually recognize by the historians community at being quite instrumental in lifting up the Arab invaders in the areas of excellency you so proudly touted, namely in architecture, mathematics, literature and medicine. The Arab alphabet was even amended and upgraded in its grammatical structure in the aftermath of the de-facto assimilation of Persians within the Arab world. You owe a great part of your progress to their involvement and should so more research on what you bring up as arguments that you believe are favorable only to your talking points.

Aside from that, rest assured my friend, I am not interested in debating the virtues of political islam (or religion rule in general) with someone still believing the Holy Wars govern modern geopolitics and prays for the death of dozens of millions because of a perceived “hidden grand design against Mecca”. An unbelievable rationale in 2020, specially when there is so much accessible data very simply explaining the many other geopolitical, territorial,and economic factors playing big time beyond the rulers’ criminally hypocritical lies about their mission being primarily about Allah, while in fact it is only about consolidating power at home with a theocratic iron fist and expanding their malign influence beyond, exactly as both the main players in this dirty “game” have been doing, namely the KSA and Iran, again two facet of a similar disease for the region. You only distinguish yourself by blindly siding with one “house” over the other because you culturally and ethnically related more to it, period. You have you own version of ISIS’s “chastise all miscreants” when you openly claim that “Shiism is not Islam” (and so must die I suppose, like you wished for Iran time and again on that very thread). There you show your inability to go past sectarian divides and conflicts, a characteristic of all radical believers.

Your mindset is the exemplification of everything that is wrong in the region today : leaders still willing to see the world through the Prism of Faith alone, first and foremost focused on some form of perpetual struggle over God and ignoring all modern underlying causes for conflicts,and also disregarding that 99% of today’s Muslim countries from Asia to Africa and the Middle East (Somalia, Sudan,Malaysia, the GCC being only a few notable example, ranging from the poorest to the richest of the Muslim world) are all more or less technically dependent nations and quasi-net importers of non-Muslim foreign-made products with little to no industry or scientific institutions of their own, and so no matter the volume of their economies , demographics, or natural ressources. Iran happens to be one of the few exceptions to that rule and itself has many flaws as well and is also still mostly dependent on oil exports to survive despite having reached prowess in several key technological sectors like Aerospace, heavy construction, naval manufacturing, nuclear tech (initially with help from Russia of course), nanotechnology, medicine production (before the US criminal sanctions destroyed their ability in that field) and radar research and development.

I could go on and on going through the list of countries currently governed by Sharia Law with societies living pretty much stuck in time with a social environment absolutely unfit for scientific or philosophical progress.

Anyway,the Arab World’s finest hour you mentioned has been dead and buried for centuries,you should focus on the present for a change,things have evolved only for the much worse.

And please, don’t ridicule yourself again by providing me with google search results fed with words supporting your narrative, anyone could dot the same and end up with thousands of publication agreeing with one thesis while ignoring anything contradicting it…

Google ‘Saudi Arabia support for terrorism” or “Human right abuses Shariah Law”and you’ll be surprised too.

gryzor84

You should take your own advice on research, mate. Indeed, had you done it more thoroughly, you have noticed that all empires in the history of Mankind so far have risen and fallen, all without exception for thousands of years, and so with or without Islam or any other religion involved. In the case of the “Arabian apex”, a million factors led to it. Islam being merely *one* of them. Besides, the Persians that you despise so much as to pray for their possible genocide along with a region on fire today are actually recognize by the historians community at being quite instrumental in lifting up the Arab invaders in the areas of excellency you so proudly touted, namely in architecture, mathematics, literature and medicine.

The Arab alphabet was even amended and upgraded in its grammatical structure in the aftermath of the de-facto assimilation of Persians within the Arab world. You owe a great part of your progress to their involvement and should so more research on what you bring up as arguments that you believe are favorable only to your talking points.

Really, try to go beyond the sole scope of your rather simplistic theological prism in every step of your constructs, as I sincerely believe that you are currently missing a lot of important layers and dimensions comprising the complexities of the world’s main flashpoints.

Aside from that, rest assured my friend, I am not interested in debating the virtues of political Islam (or religion rule in general) with someone still believing the Holy Wars govern modern geopolitics and prays for the death of dozens of millions because of a perceived “hidden grand design against Mecca”. In my opinion, an unbelievable rationale in 2020, especially when there is so much accessible data very simply explaining the many other geopolitical, territorial, and economic factors playing big time beyond the rulers’ criminally hypocritical lies about their mission being primarily about Allah, while in fact it is only about consolidating power at home with a theocratic iron fist and expanding their malign influence beyond, exactly as both the leading players in this dirty “game” have been doing, namely the KSA and Iran. Again two facets of a similar disease for the region.

You only distinguish yourself by blindly siding with one “house” over the other because you can culturally and ethnically relate to it, period. You have you own version of ISIS’s “chastise all miscreants” when you openly claim that “Shiism is not Islam” (and so must die or be stopped by all-out war I suppose, like you wished time and again for Iran on that very thread and others). There you show your limits of your mindset in finally breaking free of sectarian fractures and, a characteristic of all non-secular, overly pious believers. Your take is the exemplification of what is wrong in the region today: individuals still willing to see the world through the Prism of Faith alone, first and foremost focused on some form of perpetual struggle over God and ignoring all modern underlying causes for conflicts that their leaders impose on them and the lies that come with it to hate an “enemy” no matter what.

Also, speaking of the Islamic golden age is good, but let’s focus on the present for a moment. You’ll see that 99% of today’s Muslim countries, from Asia to Africa and the Middle East (Somalia, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Chad, the GCC being only a few notable example, ranging from the poorest to the richest of the Muslim world) are more or less ALL technically dependent nations and quasi-net importers of non-Muslim foreign-made products, sometimes providing cheap labor and relocation for foreign firms and investors, with little to no industry or scientific institutions of their own, and so no matter the volume of their economies , demographics, or natural resources.

Now Iran and Pakistan happen the two exceptions to that rule, mainly because they haven’t been subjected to radical Islam continuously and culturally speaking: Persians have been refusing any form of religious law for decades and way before the 79 Revolution, and 90% of them demand a fully secular system day after day. Pakistan is a young and troubled country spawned by an ailing British colonialism, and rife with Islamist insurgency overtaking an entire region, Shariah Law sees a strict and merciless, brutal application in well-documented cases each year. Anyway, Pakistan is wholly dependent on Saudi oil-money as well, it’s economy is barely sustainable as it is while it suffer from exactly zero kind of sanctions or geopolitical hurdles impeding is path to progress, and Iran has many flaws as well and is also still mostly dependent on oil exports to survive despite having reached prowess in several key technological sectors like aerospace, heavy construction, naval manufacturing, nuclear tech (initially with help from Russia of course), nanotechnology, medicine production (before the US criminal sanctions destroyed their ability in that field) and radar research and development.

I could go on and on going through the list of countries currently governed by Sharia Law with societies pretty much frozen in time, with a social environment absolutely unfit for scientific or philosophical progress, and men and women being officially unequal in the face of law and individual rights. Anyway, the Arab World’s finest hour you mentioned has been dead and buried for centuries, you should focus on the present for a change, things have evolved only for the much worse. And please, don’t ridicule yourself again by providing me with google search results fed with words supporting your narrative, anyone could dot the same and end up with thousands of publication agreeing with one thesis while ignoring anything contradicting it… Google ‘Saudi Arabia support for terrorism” or “Human right abuses Shariah Law” and you’ll be surprised too.

The Objective

Everything you’ve said countered in a few sentences.
If the Persians were so powerful and intelligent, how comes their empire was conquered in just a few years? and don’t forget the other empires that succumbed to the Muslims.
Secondly, could you name some renowned Persian scientist who were non-Muslims and made great contribution to science? It’s important that those Scientists be non-Muslims, because we are talking about Islam – not Arabs. In return, I’ll turn up many names among the Muslims who made great scientific contributions that the modern world cannot forget. And please, keep your answer short.

gryzor84

“Everything you’ve said countered in a few sentences.”

Just as everything you say, mate, rest assured. Keep in mind that what you believe is so solid in your argumentation may not be for others or in the absolute. And if I judge that my reply has to be long, it will be long. Feel free to read or not.

“Secondly, could you name some renowned Persian scientist who were non-Muslims and made great contribution to science?”

Islam was forced on them and they many only posed as devout Muslims, namely Omar Khayyam himself. It’s the Arab that gradually discovered Persian aptness at science and many of their administrator fascinated their own, it’s not me saying, it’s themselves in many documented instances. Culture is NOT religion, or at least not solely defined by it, there lies your biggest mistake.

About Empires now : As I said in my previous post, Persians, just like every notable empire in Mankind’s history, including the Arabs, first rises, dominates for some time, and then reaches critical mass, falling victim to its own size it cannot control past a certain point in time, and ultimately either falls outright or gets reduced enough to stop being a dominant entity. History has never been different than that for any people. What you say of Persians being invaded rapidly makes no sense. When an empire fis to fall, it falls, sooner or later.

Now , what don’t you mention how long they ruled before falling ? how much they contributed before the Arabs were even a thing ? how much they lifted up Arab culture and science themselves post-invasions ? did you read the caliph quote I pasted ? plus, even after the invasions, they had their own renaissance that culminated with the Safavids a mere couple centuries after getting hit by the Arabs, overall they remained a completely separate national entity, kept their language and culture, rebuilt armies, reconquered lands, and even spawned an alternative version of Islam. That is why all Sunni extremist like Al-Qaeda and ISIS keep on calling them “Safavid infidels”, there’es a reason for those nicknames.

And similarly, today’s Iran despite all its downsides, is bigger and more advanced than any Arab state to this very day, even as a society where 60% of ruling cadres in academic and corporate circles are women, enjoyed the highest diploma per capita and one of the leading scientific development index of the world. The mere fact that Iran *exists* today and owns so many Arab countries at once despite their US support is testament to their sempiternel prowess, past and present, open your eyes.

They have entered the aerospace club despite MTCR regimes hampering their progress, mastered petrochemical cycles for refined petroleum products, automotive industries, nano-technological know-how fpr both military and civilian use, a fully-fledged pharmaceutical sector producing vaccines regionally before the Trump sanctions, advanced optics design and production, a burgeoning electronics industry, heavy construction and Russian-derived nuclear R&D that they even sell to neighboring countries through many services.

Now, what of Arab countries in comparison , TODAY ? and please, don’t tell me about Qatar, or the EAU or Kuwait or any GCC state, as 90% of their engineer come from abroad and basically any piece of tech is handled and owned by foreign firms there… they just throw in the money, they don’t even have an existing scientific academic base, unlike Iran, they best cadre are all financiers and bankers, those are the dominant sectors of their economy, and with reason.

Bottom line is : f they Arabs are so smart and with no compare to other people as you claim throughout history, and all that thanks to the virtues of Islam, how come so many of their inheritors have fallen so easily under Iranian sway that you complain so much about ? what of their current status compared to Iran ? again, why do you want to keep digging the past so hard ? Focus on the present, that’s the only era that matters !

The Objective

If Muslims achieved great scientific breakthroughs in the past, they surely can today. The point of this argument is not so much about Arabs or Persians as about Islam being the cause of the current comparatively less development in Muslim countries. You ignore that fact that much of the world is in poverty and underdeveloped despite not practicing Sharia. You also neglect the fact that Muslim countries get the most interference from outside powers fearful of Islam.
So you are right, this argument ends here. But my final state is: if previous Muslim generations had great scientific breakthroughs and even ruled the world for centuries, then Islam cannot be the problem. It’s even better argument to call it the solution. The problem of our time lies with the Muslims, not Islam. And this will change.

gryzor84

That’s where we will differ most indeed. For me, if *Arabs* have achieved that much before, they sure can today.

You made this argument partly about bashing Persians and belittling everything they were (and are today as Iranians) solely and explicitly based on the fact that they do not follow the ways of Allah, let’s be up to our respective rationale, please. And I explained with historical facts why I find this thesis absurd, or at least factually untrue if we look back at history.

You are also totally wrong on foreign power interference : they not only do NOTHING to stop Islamic countries from being what they are (like the GCC states , the KSA first in line, well-protected, with its ruthless Islamic rule covered diplomatically and militarily bu the US of A themselves in every respect), they put all the focus of their aggression on secular countries, like Syria, Irak, Libya, even Egypt for a time before the anti-colonial Soviets intervened in the 50s in favor of Nasser. They sometimes turn secular countries into Islamic wastelands like in Afghanistan. That’s why the Muslim Brotherhood has ALWAYS been a circumstantial ally of the CIA whenever they needed to try and topple a secular nation-state.

Why ? because that’s what they are afraid of most : secular, nationalistic Arab governments that aim to get their country out of every bit of dependency away from the West. They rejoice at backwards, tribal, primitive and so easily controllable Islamic monarchies like the Gulf regimes. That’s what suits them the most as docile satellites. The more societies are busy delving into Allah’s world and neglecting the need to go past dated and anachronistic issues like women’s clothing, adultery, theft, blasphemy , apostasy or praying 5 times a day, they don’t care about getting a real industry, a real technological base, a real country, in other worlds. No ambition other than establishing what they locally perceive as the right theological posture worthy of their God, and that’s it.

Modern iterations of rigorist Islam is neo-colonialism’s best friend ever. Think on that.

I don’t ignore what you pointed out about global poverty of most nations, I simply base my assertion on hard data, and that data points at a sad, yet undeniable reality : the entirety of today’s nations rich and poor, driven by political Islam holding Sharia-law as its Constitution and ideological manifesto are either failed-states, stagnating satellites of foreign powers led by despots and/or inept puppet governments, with little to nothing to show of credible prowess at anything of relevance, are systematically victims of a foreign stranglehold economically and terribly lag behind technologically, none of them anything even remotely close to self-sufficient countries with fully-fledged scientific communities or infrastructure, let alone homegrown industries of basically any kind.

By contrast, the past couple of centuries ever since the Industrial Revolution have been the exclusive achievements of secular societies while the Muslim World was busy looking at itself and cultivating an increasingly destructive and backwards obscurantism take on Islamic scriptures and was losing layer after layer of its edge over the rest of the world. Hate it, choose to ignore it, or like it.

And that’s all I base my mindset on. I do no like witnessing the Arab World’s demise as a dominant or at least sovereign entity any more than you do. Believe it or not, I actually still support secular Panarabism as without external influence and generations of foreign sabotage.

If notable , non-Islamic countries and governments like Egypt’s Nasser or even younger and once smarter Irak’s Hussein and Libya’s Qaddafi were once able to secure their people’s independence, stopped being obedient colonies of the West, and laid the foundations for great modernization projects in their respective countries and societies (before being gradually ruined by a lot of factors that are intimately linked to the many machinations occurring around and within their rich countries through the dark confines of the Cold War and its powerful players), then I will keep up hope that other leader with that experience in mind can take the reigns again in the future and get the best of regular Arab societies along with them to the path of global rebirth.

Theocratic rule (Islam or otherwise) is a thing of the past. It had its time to shine and provide some sort of early form of federated rule, a unifying vector for people to come together when alternative Institutions and a bill of rights were not even imaginable concepts, but it has shown its limits centuries ago, and we see its many failures to this day, drowning ever deeper in

The Objective

If you think Saudi Arabia is under Islamic rule, then you are brainwashed beyond what I thought. You are clearly not a Muslim, or worse, a secular unlearned Shiite. There is no point arguing this with you as you can’t differentiate a Truly Shariah country and a Hypocritical Shariah country. To be most effective, Shariah must be implemented in its entirety.
Here’s an Example of what a Shariah government should strive towards:
1. Strictly no alliance whatsoever with the Kuffar (including Europe, America, etc.). We can coexist peacefully and have peace treaties, but no alliance.
2. Every bit of wealth belongs to the People and Must be spent on the people and their religion
3. The government must strive to educate every citizen both religious wise and worldly knowledge from which they can earn a living.
4. They must always strive to unite Muslims under a single leader, and help as many Muslims as possible.
5. They must compete with disbelieving nations regarding scientific knowledge, and other skills necessary to keep the nation strong and well-defended.
6. They must not persecute scholars who preach the truth even if it touches something the government does wrong.
7. Leaders are to lead by example in piety, mercy, humility and kindness. they must obey Allah and enforce obedience to Allah.

These are just a few points. Now tell me which one of these Saudi Arabia or your other so-called Islamic governments abide by. This is why I call you a complete ignoramus regarding Sharia or what a Sharia government should look like. It is only in Islam that one person had a library of about 5000 books hundreds of years ago. So you can’t call us people who do not learn, whether science or spiritual. It is only the fire of disbelief burning in your heart that blinds you to these realities. And instead of you to calm down and learn, you are too eager to say your piece.

C.I.A uses some Muslims. But these are largely ignorant Muslims or hypocrites. If every Muslim were to understand and abide by the teachings of Islam, there is nowhere the C.I.A or anyone can penetrate. And Muslims will be the most powerful people on Earth.

What differentiates today’s Muslims from previous Muslims who ruled the world is their steadfastness towards learning and living by the laws of Allah. Nothing else. if just 5% of today’s Muslims were to abide by Shariah, they’ll b enough to for the Whole kuffars of this world put together.

gryzor84

I’m going to save you the trouble of guessing : I’m an atheist, and I’m fully informed about the measurable “virtues” of Shariah Law wherever it is claimed to be applied. I don’t care one second what you or other pro-Sharia militants claim it “should be”. Now you can really start hating me if you wish as much as the Shiite infidels, whether you do will be your choice.

Indeed, what matters isn’t what you “wish”, or “believe” it ideally “would be” if “done correctly”. All of these are wishful assumptions that do not pass the test of concrete, implacable, stone-cold reality that hurts.

What I see is that your fantasy world does not exist anywhere nor has it existed anywhere on the planet for CENTURIES , yet you keep on finding hypothetical excuses to desperately continue to believe in your unicorns. And that’s your greatest weakness, exactly what keeps you from realizing the right path forward for the Arab people you care about so much and that is currently drowning in submission by foreign coercion and fratricidal wars.

You have been unable to directly address anything I pointed out in my previous post. And I made no rhetorical or ideological speeches, I simply observed what is of current REALITIES, with no concessions to the sincerity that might lie at the bottom of a credulous and ill-informed mind like yours.

If you go by the book, and stick to the strictest application of its scriptures, you systematically end up with the worst kind of nihilism, this is fact, everywhere, and gets executed as such. In the Quran, one passage can say the exact opposite of the other, it is up to the individual to be intelligent and distinguish what he wants to see and do from the letter of the written Word.

Point 1 to 7 can ALL be done without the teaching of a Holy book or scripture whatsoever., Quran, Thora, or Bible for that matter. You only need to be clear-headed, sincere and boast true moral and philosophical integrity as a leader for your people to which you teach solidarity as a universal mindset that transcends all beliefs and ideologies, including faith. Secular regimes have tried all the guidelines that you listed and have been truer to them than what stands today as Shariah-governed countries, the countries they have led have advanced scientifically, and they grant their women and men the same level of rights and privilege to advance in life, and I say this notwithstanding all the inherent difficulties in climbing the social ladder in today’s world. They don’t cut off heads or crucify people, don’t judge for apostasy , don’t throw me ni prison because I chose to be a non-believer either, to name only a few examples.

Your ideal does not work, or hasn’t been working for centuries. Worse, it has been crumbling as we speak.

You are playing with words and arbitrary semantics to be able to stand your ground while a world of realities totally contradicts every bit of your rationale. If you think Saudi Arabia is NOT governed by Shariah Law, then you are the only brainwashed individual here,I’m afraid. And indeed, no point in arguing further with you. All countries basing their political system on religion (and again, not Islam specifically) have ultimately failed, period, by all definitions of the terms, and had to amend themselves and withdraw from governing institutions to gradually get back to what they”re supposed to be : a bridge between a believer and his private, personal affair with his God. You seem to also ignore everything of the notion of “Aggiornamento”.

You’re sweating with anger and now call me “ignoramus” on history yet you obviously utterly ignore everything of Persians both pre-Islam and post-Islam, that you keep on hating in all eras of their existence based on sectarian resentment, this is beyond primitive as a mindset, and not surprising one bit considering your backwards take on affairs.

You don’t even know about their many contributions to Arab culture, nor do you even comprehend that Islam was merely a unifying driver for a time there was no alternative way of governance or institutions, and certainly not a recipe for their long-gone greatness. You even fail to understand cause and consequences of Empires’ demise throughout history, as your mindset is so closed and viscerally centered around religion it cannot be shaken at adult age.

You are like a child covering his ears and eyes top hide from what scares them.

What I care is what I see happening everywhere, systematically, I measure the present, and its hard realities to address them intellectually. You simply pray, wait, wish, imagine, hope for, blame, guess, remember. It will never work, proof being, the world for centuries for Arabs.

The Objective

Now you are being emotional. So many claims without a shred of evidence. I called you a non-Muslim or an ignorant Shiite because of your apparent display of ignorance regarding the Shariah, yet you are trying to discus its effects.

Sure, nobody has the right to judge anyone. Only God can do that. It is permissible to condemn what God has clearly condemned in his book and through his messengers – and that’s what I did. I rebuked you for your amateurish attempt to discuss the Shariah, despite you knowing next to nothing about it.

Muslim scholars used to say, “one should feel sorry for a learned man who debates with ignorant folks not aware of their ignorance”. Your case is a pretty good example. This is my proof, and there are many more from your comments: “If you think Saudi Arabia is NOT governed by Shariah Law, then you are the only brainwashed individual here,I’m afraid. And indeed, no point in arguing further with you”

You are right. Let’s end this argument. Discuss another topic with anyone, but not Shariah.

gryzor84

“Now you are being emotional. So many claims without a shred of evidence. I called you a non-Muslim or an ignorant Shiite because of your apparent display of ignorance regarding the Shariah, yet you are trying to discus its effects.”

No sir, I am not emotional/angry one bit. I’m simply in awe as to the level of confidence one can have in his own ignorance, that is all. Your utter inability at questioning your own dogmatic doctrine in the face of crude, unquestionable facts one invites you to do research on that are basically all over the place for your to learn, instead withdrawing each time deeper within the confines of your fantasy world where you always seem to prevails in your own (and only) view, is one astonishing trait one has to constantly adjust to.
Aside from that, you will know that quoting wiser people than you are in a discussion certainly won’t make you shine one bit brighter in a given failure, either.

You failed to either recognize let alone address the core points I repeatedly provided you as to the current situation of countries and regimes calling themselves pious and Shariah as their law. You kept on asking things that I provided and invited you to verify by the letter time and again. Your obsessive attachment to exclusively religious paradigms have truly rendered you deaf-blind and immune to independent and objective thinking, in stark contrast to the undeserving nickname you chose to use on this site.

You don’t even seem to know about honor killings of women and young girls in Pakistan and Afghanistan in the name of Shariah that also textually allows it in Islamic courts, as well as stoning for adultery in both Saudi Arabia and Iran, limb amputations for theft of Crucifixion for blasphemy or apostasy, the cutting of heads for capital punishment, the list goes on and on and there are hundreds instances of complaints by the UN Human Rights Council against Tchad, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia (to quote only the most notorious examples) each year, precisely for their record numbers of such heinous and barbaric treatment of their own citizens.

Similarly you have yet to name one Islamic country with recognized aptitude, dedicated academic institutions and/or high-end know-how of prowess in any area of technological relevance comparable to their non-Arab/Muslim counterparts or secular ones. And this has been true of them for centuries.

” “one should feel sorry for a learned man who debates with ignorant folks not aware of their ignorance”. Your case is a pretty good example. “This is my proof, and there are many more from your comments: “If you think Saudi Arabia is NOT governed by Shariah Law, then you are the only brainwashed individual here,I’m afraid. And indeed, no point in arguing further with you””

And how exactly do you consider you objectively “won” this argument by simply declaring it as such ? As I said before, those quotes are too big for you to handle, hence you simply drop them at ever turn claiming they make you right.

In France where I live, it’s called “giving quality jam to pigs”. I let you think on its meaning, I’m sure even you can understand.

“Then I challenged you to name the contributions Persians made to science and we will simply compare to the ones by the early Muslims. I never said non-Muslims are not intelligent. I just wanted you to know that Muslims were a successful nation long before they brought the Persian empire to its knees.”

Firs they did not “bring it to its knees”, again you don’t read, or can’t see what you dislike. Over the span of mere couple of centuries, it regained everything it has once lost and rose up as a integrally Persian national power that culminated with the Safavids, gradually reformed, reorganized and amassed new armies and took on regional powerhouses of its own triggering a new phase of expansion, kept its language completely intact.It indeed used a specifically calculated variant of Islam to federate its own, in some sort of theological inheritance of the Arabs, and it worked wonders. Now that doesn’t make today’s Chiite’s any less pious or worthy believer than modern Sunnis.

This ultimately made Iran what it remains today : the largest and technologically most advanced country in the middle-east, subjugating one Arab country after the other without firing a bullet while under the pain of international sanctions and Arabs backed by the biggest world powers, with its population still celebrating their ancient Gods and traditions each year in total independence from the Muslim world.

You never were able to absorb them culturally and at the contrary, they historically helped you reach new heights scientifically and culturally once partly integrated into your society, and I quoted an Arab caliph to support that, and of course, this you consistently ignored that.

And never said the Muslim were not successful before taking on Persia. You seems to believe that Persia fell because it didn’t have Islam, which was technically , easily demonstrable as false.

For the third time, in my view, Islam was merely “one” factor in the Arabs’ success in the middle-ages.

“If you are aware, a growing number of Western research ers and scientist belief that women are destroying the academia when they mingle with men in classes. They tend to impede men’s ability to perform their best. Please do some research on this.”

I see. No matter how much the world evolves past you and how far it leaves you behind with your unshakable myths and nostalgia of a distant past, you continue digging deeper in such miserably outdated concepts. There goes whatever was left of our dignity as an adult and pretty much confirms my suspicions as to your level of intellectual and even cultural advancement.

And what studies please ? what recognized piece of evidence do you have to offer in that regard outside of your religious circles agreeing with themselves ? all of a sudden “western (i.e. non-Muslims Kufars) have to be taken at face value ?

All I see is that whenever society are secular and men and women work together they do wonders in contributing equally to science. Unlike you, I have grown in a secular society, and studied IT engineering with a lot of female peers. They passed their diplomas with honors and so did I and my other male comrades. Some boys failed, some girls failed as well, as human, not different sub-species.

Not one statistic gives credence to your claim, men and women achieve results equally no matter if they work together or apart. No wonder the likes of Marie Curie come from France, have you even ever heard about her ? she was a key-scientist to whom we owe 90% of today’s nuclear knowledge. I let you guess where her ambition and talents would have ended had she be born in a Shariah-based country. She couldn’t even have walked the door to scientific classes.

Your justification for separating men and women in classrooms and society in general is textbook backwardness, and a painfully primitive Islamic thinking of the worst kind right there, you amaze me merely by thinking you could speak of this and still” win” anything intellectually… even other Muslim colleagues and a roommate I once had the chance to discuss such topics with were clearer-minded than you and considered such rationales a thing of the past made by ignorant, anachronistic Muslims pretending they understand the Word better.

What is it with you old-school Muslims and women in the end ? in what terrible ways have they wronged you so much as to make them sub-citizens under men’s authority by Law, being bared from hundreds of scientific diplomas and studies reserved for men like in the KSA and ALSO Iran itself, even deprived of their right to travel or DRIVE alone when it comes to Saudi Arabia, getting acid thrown at them in Afghanistan when some men find them too beautiful not to be tempting ?

Why should they be blamed for allegedly mingling with your minds , and not you being unable to keep it together as a normal adult and not continuously think about unspeakable practices on the mere sight of a woman ? why should they be blamed when you decide to be tempted and troubled ?

See, you blame them through arbitrary assertions merely because they are born women. They cannot even stand a chance at enjoying life as much as you men are allowed to do since you “consider” that they tempt/mingle/disturb your by merely being and evolving next to you.

This is unbelievable in 2020, you are so harshly stuck in time a thousand years ago, it borders lunacy. But I’m not surprised, you previous faux-pas have been plenty in that regard, your mindset is beyond simplistic and you probably also believe in sorcery and djinns for all I care.

Oh and you do seem to like quotes, I have a particularly fitting one that came to my mind yesterday, yet I did not think of dropping it , but that latest piece of yours deserves it in full. It’s from Martin Luther King, this one I believe you know :

““Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”

You know, in some ways, you ARE right about Islam being tainted by the most ignorant Muslims, no matter its possible contributions to better societies. You are a prime example as to why, no matter the actual chances the Quran might still have to provide advancement and light instead of endless obscurantism by the many progressive interpretations one may have of its scriptures, people of your kind are clearly not one of those chances.

The Objective

We aren’t talking about Arabs, but Islam. If Arabs appear in my comment, I am referring to the Muslims among them. You claim that any country being ruled base on pure Shariah will experience backwardness in development. I hope you will explain how Shariah causes a society to go backwards in scientific knowledge and skill. Try, and you’ll likely realize just how little you’ve learnt about Shariah. I’ll try to explain things depending on your description of how Shariah causes backwardness.

gryzor84

“We aren’t talking about Arabs, but Islam. If Arabs appear in my comment, I am referring to the Muslims among them. ” then a non-Muslim is a non-man, undeserving of praise of consideration until he becomes one or dies like the Shiite infidels ? you seem to be a worse reactionary , intolerant simpleton than I actually thought.

I will NEVER speak of people solely based on their Faith. I will refer to them as what they are. Men with the ability to love, hate, think.

“you claim that any country being ruled base on pure Shariah will experience backwardness in development. I hope you will explain how Shariah causes a society to go backwards in scientific knowledge and skill.”

I’ve done that already in lengthy passages in my two previous posts, another proof that you do not even bother to read before angrily reacting to my sentences. I’ll refer you back to the part where they destroy Museums, burn libraries, put compulsory hijab on women and cut them away from society, turn school into Islamic teaching centers where the only books allowed are the Quran, among others. I will not repeat myself.

I am referring to the regimes claiming they endorse and enforce Sharia-Law TODAY, I don’t care about your personal ideal or definition of it that we’ve seen NOWHERE for hundreds and hundreds of years and counting. The Arab golden age responded to many factors among which, yes, Islam, at the time.Religion didn’t have either the same place of nature within people’s hearts and minds. It has greatly changed for the worse now, and that’s what I focus my analysis on.

The Objective

In your opening statement, you introduced a confusion – or rather, a new dimension to our argument. I never claimed that non-Muslims are not intelligent. Allah gives intelligence to whomever he wills, and that includes non-Muslims. I only made reference to non-Muslims when you claimed that early Muslim got their power and scientific advances through the Persians they conquered. Then I challenged you to name the contributions Persians made to science and we will simply compare to the ones by the early Muslims. I never said non-Muslims are not intelligent. I just wanted you to know that Muslims were a successful nation long before they brought the Persian empire to its knees.

You haven’t proven how Shariah impedes knowledge. You don’t even know what Shariah is, let alone the effects of its application. Their are rules guiding how to acquire knowledge. One such rule is that MEN and WOMEN should not be mixed in institutions. If you are aware, a growing number of Western researchers and scientist belief that women are destroying the academia when they mingle with men in classes. They tend to impede men’s ability to perform their best. Please do some research on this.

So how does it impede knowledge if men and women study separately? If it is counterproductive, why does America have girls’ or boys’ colleges?

Just say which Shariah rules affect knowledge and how, if you are truthful. This is a challenge. Just tell me “so and so” Shariah rule impede knowledge in “so and so” way. And not some vague comments about women covering, which is a clear sign of your ignorance regarding the Shariah. Like I said earlier, it is just the fire of disbelief clouding your judgement.

Blaming Islam for the present situation of Muslim countries, maybe you should read this; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world
The problem is not with Islam but with Muslims. Islam never changes. humans do. It is only in Islam you will find this text: “Seek for knowledge from the cradle to the grave”. This is a saying of our beloved Prophet (s.a.w), and it refers to any beneficial knowledge – not just religious knowledge.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I can’t see a pattern what are you talking about, you must be hallucinating, and with 3 dislikes already it seems 3 other people can’t see a pattern either, so what’s wrong with you, you’re the odd man out here, [not really]. :]

Zionism = EVIL

Syria needs to act on its interest as the midget Putin is openly trying to undermine Assad now.

Jim Allen

No, you ?

dontlietome

…………….But they are still in the fight………………….so give them the respect that they are due………………..

Willing Conscience (The Truths

When did the Iranians say their new AA systems would be deployed to Syria, was it 2 or 3 months ago.
And when they finally arrive in Syria will they be able to do what the Iranians say they can, until they arrive we won’t know one way or the other, but if they don’t hurry up there may nothing left to protect anyway, so they better hurry up and send them.

<>

They better hurry up and send them so we can destroy them :)

guest

You are a delusional adolescent and a pathological liar, this virtual world is stunting your retarded mental state even further.

Willing Conscience (The Truths

I wonder if they haven’t already blown up a few as soon as they arrived, maybe that’s why we haven’t seen them in action.
The Russians seemed to be cooling things down in Daraa and As Suwayda but Quneitra is fast taking their place as a new source of irritation for your government, and on top of that the Iranians have just started recruiting more fighters for their militias in Daraa, so neither your government or the Russians will be happy about that.
To be honest I don’t think the Iranians will send in their new AA systems at all, as I pointed out in a previous post, they won’t really be effective unless they’re incorporated into the existing Russian command control system, and I’d nearly bet my life savings that will never happen.

Icarus Tanović

Here comes punk motherfucker Iron melted Zion bitten to dust in 3,2,1…GERONIMOOO, LET’S GO AND TALK SOME SHIT TO SOME RANDOM GUY.

Zionism = EVIL

I try to remain objective, but he has a valid point which some people may not like:

“Long Live Syria! Down with Assad!” Russia’s Syrian proxy shouts

Moscow used its South Syrian proxy, the Fifth Corps, to send a message to Bashar Assad in Damascus. This telling slogan was shouted on Aug. 1 in the presence of Russian officers at a
passing-out parade of 1,000 Russian- trained recruits of the Fifth Corps. This militia was established earlier this year to nail down Moscow’s role as the boss of southern Syria. It rules three regions, Daraa, Quneitra and Jebel Druze and acts as a buffer zone for the protection of Israel.

Most of the volunteers joining up are former rebels, some of them southern Syrian fighters against the Assad regime who were in Israel’s pay during the civil war. Installed as their
commander is Ahmed al- Awdah, Today, he answers directly to a Russian general through his Mossad handlers. The Fifth Corps, most of whose recruits are Sunni Muslims, are being propped up as a barrier against Iranian, pro-Iranian or Hezbollah intrusions or Syrian national army attempts to challenge Russian control of southern Syria. Putin is working closely with Israel in promoting a permanent partition of Syria and was instrumental in stopping the successful SAA and Iranian offensive against the terrorist groups in Idlib earlier this year.

And so the slogan, “Long Live Syria! Down with Assad!” coming from the throats of a thousand new Russian-trained Syrian recruits, at a parade attended by a Russian colonel and other officers,would have resounded jarringly in the ears of Bashar Assad and his
regime. Vladimir Putin was telling him from Awdah’s Bosra headquarters in the South where the power, that guaranteed his survival by military intervention, stands today and what is planned in the Kremlin for his country and regime.

If there was any doubt about those intentions, Russian officers have also been making their way to the eastern province of Der Ezzour to raise local talent to limit the Iranian and PMU influence

of this Syrian-Iraqi border region. Russia has been cooperating with Israel in the recent airstrikes on PMU and Iranian Pasdaran units.

d'Artagnan

Russian military is also a hostage to Putin and the Jew oligarchs. Every senior Russian Federation officer in Syria has been replaced with hand chosen Putin’s obedient servants. Putin is very unpopular in Russia now.

Jim Allen

You’re pitiful, brainwashed, weak. Only those stupid as you would believe your bullshit. You cannot back this idiocy up with tangible evidence.
How sad, you don’t deserve the name you’ve chosen for yourself.

Jim Allen

Not.

Icarus Tanović

Have you lost your mind or you are the other guy pretending to be you?

<>

Crying now are we? wait we have bigger plans for Hezbollah and Lebanon, waiting for their mistake.

Jimmy Jim

GAS THE KIKES & SAVE HUMANITY!

guest

You are a very disturbed and shameless teenager. I am always here to help, if you get a note from your mother.

Jim Allen

He doesn’t have a mother, he’s a test tube baby gone awry.

Zionism = EVIL

Now that the Zionist cowards are shit scared of attacking Hezbollah and “Iranian” targets, they are attacking Druze villages on the Golan. However, I believe that time has come for Syria to respond and start a national liberation war on the Occupied Golan. The Zionists are in very poor shape to fight a sustained asymmetrical war as the Pimpeovirus has put 40% of the IDF child killers out of their diapers.

d'Artagnan

Beware of the looming chaos in the Middle East as Turkey, Zionists and Russia try to divide the Arabs and loot their resources.The region in 2020 is in much worse shape than in 2010, when US, Saudis and Zionists unleashed Salafist terror on Syria, the last Arab bastion of resistance. Despite losing over 300 men as Pompeo boasted Russian response have been very meek and simpatico with Zionist goals and protection of Israel.

<>

That’s for trying to plant a bomb on the fence, the SAA better calm down their shia puppets or more airstrikes will be done. Another great day for us, I hope Hezbollah’s watching closely they are next.

d'Artagnan

School holidays? covid break? back to peddling nonsense.

<>

I owe you no explanations how I make my money loser, back to your hole please.
Enjoy the strikes :)

d'Artagnan

You are liar and a fool. Best laughing stock on this forum.

<>

According to you, which means basically nothing for me :)

Jimmy Jim

KIKES TO THE OVENS!

Jim Allen

Oh, I agree with him. Count your down votes that’s the number of people that think you’re a laughingstock.
You’re embarrassing your grandmother again. You’re pathetic.

<>

I couldn’t give a flying fuck about you Jim aswell. One more annoying comment and I block you, try me.

Jim Allen

Promise ?

<>

Yeah, it’s a promise. Go for it.

guest

The sooner Syria responds the more rapid the process of Zionist demise.

Free man

“The sooner Syria responds the more rapid the process of Zionist demise.” – What are you smoking?
Syria will not respond. Nor will Hezbollah respond to the killing of its 4 operatives in the Golan.
The Iranian militias are characterized by a lot of threats and talk but 0 acts.

Jim Allen

Positively delusional.
Do you have the slightest hint of a clue how many Zionist Khazar pretend Jews on this rock ? Taking out Israel, isn’t even a start. The Whole Catholic Church, with the Jesuits, the Headcutters, US Government, The Vatican, The City of London, The entire Illuminati bloodlines,
(all the Royalty, big corporations, big financial institutions, big ag, big oil, big transportation, big pharma, big food production, more…) Charities, non-profits, etc..
All countries have oligarchs, all Zionist’s.
The secret societies, tens of millions of attorneys.
Zionists have the money, hard money.
Yet the only thing you Bozo’s see is Syria.
The countries that are standing against the Zionist Khazar pretenders are the countries you’re mocking, disparaging, and telling each other lies about. These countries are capable of dealing with the Zionist Khazars, are they skeered ? When one is facing arrogant sociopaths, and lunatics with a nuke button threatening the most insane actions, while they continue committing non-stop crimes against humanity, if one isn’t scared, then one is a fool. You would not be scared, you’d just tell ’em to do it, you’ll kick their ass.
Not ! You’d be scared stupid, frozen in terror, you couldn’t even speak.
You’re a wanna’ be bully, a coward screeching insults from behind a thin façade. All bluff, and bluster. You’re weak, have no honor, no respect for anyone, or anything, not even yourself. But, then you know how you are, and no one could respect, your selfish, self-centered, self-absorbed, being, you’d sell your mother to save your sorry ass. From a handrail.
Get back to your basement, try to use your device to educate your sorry-ass self with actual facts, on the subjects you have a pretense of knowledge. Or, go on being the self-important, tough guy you think you are.

igybundy

I just farted when I read the spookeymans announcement..

cechas vodobenikov

more fabrications to justify annual 3.8 billion $ US military aid to Israel

The Objective

We are still waiting for the Hezbollah retaliation. Days ago, SouthFront claimed that Israel request Hezbollah to not avenge the death of their martyr in exchange for not attacking Hezbollah targets in Syria again.
Fact is, whether they attack Hezbollah, Syrian, or Iranian forces, it all amounts to one and the same thing.
I said the previous claim by SouthFront regarding what Hezbollah says is false. Israel isn’t backing down from further strikes in Syria that will endanger Hezbollah fighters. That lie was a face-saving stunt for Hezbollah. Expect more and more provocations from Israel until Trump is voted out of office. But if Trump wins – – – – – –

<>

Hey Objective, actually only SF claimed that we “begged” Hezbollah not to respond. I dare anyone here find me an official Israeli saying that, you can’t find one because it’s a pure propaganda. What we have said however, is that we will keep acting against Iranian forces in Syria and if that means Hezbollah fighters die there too, then so be it. We are not backing down from our redlines, IDF killing 4 of their guys proved our point. If Hezbollah still wants to retaliate by all means do it, but they can’t cry on the media for the consequences we will bring on them and Lebanon alike.

The Objective

Is it 4 or 1 Hezbollah fighter killed? If it is up to four as you claim, then these guys must fear Trump more than I thought.

dontlietome

You are a fucking moron, brainless, an amoeba is smarter than you. The video you quote was created in an IDF associated studio responsible for disino. Why would Hezbollah send 4, highly trained operatives to plant a bomb at such a worthless site. When Hezbollah plan an operation, it is meticulously planned and risk assessed. The Disinfo video is for local consumption, to continue the lie and the hubris and deceit that they feed you from cradle to grave……………..and you lap it up like the sick fuck that you are.

<>

Yeah yeah, keep crying.

dontlietome

…………enjoy eating shit in hell………………..If you were every confronted by a Hezbollah warrior, you’d be history faster than swatting a fly.

<>

I’m so very scared, now please fuck off you’re boring me.

Cromwell

If the big orange is voted out of office there will be more attacks against Syria and Russia,the so called Democrats attacked more people than anyone,that senile fart Biden will probably start a major flare up in Ukraine.

The Objective

So what does that mean? waving the flags of old victories doesn’t make you look strong today. If Hezbollah is so powerful, why do they keep dodging a fight with Israel?
As long as Trump is in office, these guys are scared shitless and won’t do a thing!

dontlietome

…….perhaps you should ask Israel……………………and you are very poorly informed for such an assumption in the first place.

verner

not to worry, the jews will soon enough be a memory, a bad memory, in the annals of mankind.

Tommy Jensen

200 Israeli strikes/year in 5 year on Syria on the excuse of an imaginary threat that dont exist, and blaming Syria for something Lebanon did.

O boy o boy.

<>

Don’t lecture us. Syria is responsible for what’s happening on their land against us, so is the Lebanese government.

AJ

The threat is imaginary since there is little prospect Syria wants to wage war on Israel or allow others to do so. Syria has its hands full with the remaining militants & then rebuilding

kamalashila

S-200 – shit
S-300 – shitter
S-400 – shittest
Putin Syria politics – shittestest

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