How Much Does Canada’s Democracy Cost?

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Canada is seeking help from the UAE and the UK to improve its relations with Saudi Arabia, which have escalated over the Canadian government’s criticizm against Riyadh’s crack down on human rights’ activists, Reuters reported on August 7.

On August 5, Saudi Arabia expelled Canada’s ambassador and freezed new trade and investment transactions with the country. On August 6, Saudi state airline Saudia said it is suspending flights to and from Toronto. By August 7, it had become known that Saudi Arabia would no longer buy Canadian wheat and barley.

These actions were taken in response to the critcizim of the arrest of women’s rights and human rights activists in Saudi Arabia voiced on an official level by the Global Affairs Canada on August 3. Critical remarks found no understanding in the Saudi leadership, which described them as “an overt and blatant interference in the internal affairs”.

Just a few days after the Saudi reponse, the Canadian government alredy forgot about its “democratic values” and started seeking a settlement of its diplomatic conflict with the regime arresting civil rights activists.

“The key is to work with allies and friends in the region to cool things down, which can happen quickly,” a source told Reuters commenting on the situation.

How much does Canada’s democracy cost if three days of light sanctions from Saudi Arabia were enough to change the course of its government?

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  • Jamie9260

    As a Canadian I am completely ashamed and embarrassed by my government We should not be taking s@#t from a terrorist supporting country like Saudi but who am I kidding our weak liberal prime minister will probably issue an apology and kiss the hand of some rep. from the Saudi government and embarrass us even more.

    • Promitheas Apollonious

      you know the old saying, that people (voters) get exactly, the leadership they deserve?

      • 1691

        This saying is not applicable any more. In most cases the people( voters) get what the deep state and its tentacles chose. The same applies to Adam Smith’s ‘invisible hand’ that used to rule the markets.

        • Tudor Miron

          I have a little different view on this matter. Old rule still apply. Yes there’s “deep state” (what I often call global predictor) but it still has to devote massive resources to brainwash population. Mass media, educational system, so called mass culture – all is working to turn people into sheeple so that they support what actually is against them. That’s why I always say that this is question of individual awareness/collective awareness. If society is perceiving something as unacceptable it is extremely difficult to force it upon that society. People that are still capable of critical thinking are small in numbers. I would hope that this number is growing but we’re not there yet. So old rule still apply – leadership is always a reflection of collective awareness of society.

          • 1691

            I see a little contadiction here: you acknowledge the damage done by the deep state in all spheres of life yet you are saying that the society is not able to think critically or analitically. Well, have you ever thought that a greater number of that society on Earth is either at work or in search of a job, always exposed to the mass media abuse and people do not have much chances, time or facilities to educate themselves? Not everyone is as lucky as you and me.

          • S Melanson

            Your post, 1691 and Promitheas need to be considered together to peice together the dynamics happening in this world.

            1691 speaks to three things.

            First, our education system, media and politicians indoctrinate the population from birth to adulthood. I know as I was asleep and believed much of what was fed to me. Indoctrination is very powerful and think of what is involved in de-programming a cult member that grew up in the cult and is all they know. By the way, I was a professor at a progressive university at the time the curriculum was targeted to dumb down – shut down critical thinking. I opposed this strongly and paid a price.

            Second is what is termed capacity for action which is two levels. As 1691 points out, most people are working long hours, paying off debt and have families and obligations. So if they wake up, they find their capacity to act constrained – this is purpose of debt enslavement.

            Thirdly has to do with the social setting the person waking up is embedded in. It is important to point out that a person’s social circle reflects the person so a person waking up will be embedded in a circle that is still indoctrinated and will view you as conspiracy nut. This is how awakening people find themselves increasingly isolated. Awakening others around you is difficult and can result in a backlash. Families and friends actually broke up over the election of Trump so this is very real.

            So can anything be done? Yes, but it is not an easy path. That said, the easiest things to do as a start I give below:

            Actions of government and corporations:

            Support actions of individuals, politicians, corporations and governments that take a stand. Canada is taking a stand and it is a correct one and should be supported. This is regardless of motive or prior history of abuses. If we respond cynically or point out past transgressions, we are playing into the hands of the cabal. Small steps forward eventually add up to a big step.

            Criticise actions or a stand you do not believe is right. this includes inaction such as the silence of Canada’s allies while Canada takes a stand on KSA.

            Actions to take:

            Sharing your values and beliefs with your social circle and peers without lecturing them can have an impact over time – be patient, they have been indoctrinated and it is a process to wake up.

            Social media: post your position on matters important to you to reinforce your values and promote discussion. Do not shut down those with differing viewpoints as you want them to change though dialog. Be open to changing your views as well but not to the point of being a weather vane.

            Write or email your representative at municipal, state/province/federal levels – state the issue and your position and briefly why. This does not require a lot of time or expense and should be done for right action (encouragement and gratitude) and wrong action (rebuke and offer alternative action and why).

            Find like minded people that are awake. This may be a group or organization. This however could involve significant time commitment and a family person would be hard pressed.

            Picking your battles – Tudor Miron points out that ulterior motives are like.y behind Canada criticizing KSA. It is unclear to me what that would be but I have a possible reason and this is relevant to choosing battles to win.

            The war in Yemen has been supported by the West and has involved lucrative arms deals with KSA/UAE – Canada $15 billion light infantry armoured vehicles deal with KSA. The diplomatic spat has put this deal in danger and for Canada, the money involved is significant. So why? Trudeau wants to win back to back majorities and the press is increasingly revealing human rights abuses of the coalition, so the arms deal could be a campaign issue.

            The disastrous Yemen campaign is losing western elite support and this presents,opportunity to get western governments to do the right thing. When Operation Golden Victory began, the west would have been unrest I’ve to any

          • frankly

            Well written post. Love that, “give the Houthis back their country before that take yours.” The following article says the US put the Saudi’s up to this. What do you think of this article?

            https://www.globalresearch.ca/is-saudi-arabia-doing-americas-bidding-by-sanctioning-canada/5649966

          • S Melanson

            Thanks for the link, I am glad you alerted me as it is a sophisticated narrative worth studying. The author Korybko is a prolific contributor to many sites, many of which are alternative media. There is no doubt he is followed by readers of alt media and elites. Is he bought and paid for as controlled opposition? I do not know enough to answer that but I can comment on what he wrote directly and here are initial thoughts on the article.

            First, the suggestion that the US encouraged KSA to respond so harshly is at best conjecture. The author provides only circumstantial evidence and even that is weak. The response of the Crown Prince seems in character and no need for external pressure.

            The Crown Prince is very frustrated with Yemen and even fearful of his position – he has made powerful enemies who can capitalize on any weakness. Throwing in the towel on Yemen is the opening his enemies are looking for and this may explain why the coalition continues military action despite the situation deteriorating at an alarming rate. Western powers are withdrawing support for the coalition and this position is hardening – they can see the war is lost.

            The Crown Prince reaction is perhaps lashing out at the West in general using Canada as an example – Lashing out at the US is out of the question and Canada presented an opening. The lashing out also serves to show he is strong and decisive as a warning to any coup attempt – the Prince is also wrapping himself in nationalistic pride to whip up the public. I think in the end all this will make no difference. The war is lost and the situation is deteriorating such that spillover into KSA could get serious. Eventually the Prince must face the music and that is losing Yemen, and realize his vulnerability to a coup that he cannot escape.

            Would a war in Iran save him? No. Reasons I can provide at another time.

            Korybko does not make the connections I discuss above with a focus on a hypothetical Trump connection. This connection is unlikely and the author even contradicts himself. If Canada is as unimportant as he says, why would there be such an effort to punish Canada, giving Canada the limelight when otherwise, the world largely ignores Canada. Well for one thing, Korybko is wrong, Canada is important.

            Oil sand plus conventional will soon reach 5 million barrels a day and this is sustainable for decades with proper environmental controls. The largest supplier of energy to the US is Canada and we are also the most secure source. Trump is raising a fuss, but I doubt he would instigate the spat between KSA and Canada – and this is the other point, the spat is damaging for Canada and not just Trudeau and yet Korybko focuses on Trump getting at Trudeau as Trump dislikes him. This is not how I see Trumps negotiation strategy with Canada.

            Trudeau is a target as leader and this is a strategy to weaken the leader and make more amenable to trade terms favourable to the US. The spat between KSA and Canada does not fit into Trumps strategy and in fact could do harm – if it be found Trump instigated, it could actually lead to rallying around Trudeau, strengthening Trudeau’s hand in negotiation.

            There are other observations but this will suffice for now.

          • frankly

            Do not pay close attention to Canadian politics. The reaction from KSA seems disproportionate to the offense so the search for what is really going on is launched. It is certain that this pressure, at this time, can not be welcome. It’s like trying to get a raise when the bill collectors are trying to repo your car, as apposed to your position with a year’s salary saved in cash, and no debt!

            As to the moral integrity of any of these folks I am unconvinced. If we can figure out with common sense that Crimea escaped a bullet by voting to join Russia to avoid the fallout from a US sponsored coup, then certainly the PM knows all that too. He knows all about the white helmets and yet here they come. I really think we have sacrificed our moral integrity to avoid the wrath of Empire. Like so many others have. What a strange way for the chickens to come home to roost. In some ways extraordinarily appropriate. If you are gonna lecture on ethics get your own straightened out first.

          • Tudor Miron

            Good point and I agree that what you suggest is a one of viable ways to change the world for better.

        • Promitheas Apollonious

          not true . Is always a choice and it dont need, only be a political choice. Having accepted that you do absolutely nothing but expecting from a fraud as this is what the politicians are, professional layers. Any one taking the choice of the system as his/hers means of surviving within it, automatically is controlled by the system.

          I am sorry to say it is fully applicable. If ion doubt study the structure of a global company, then add to her all the sub companies that feed the main body, and then how many business are created by association with this global company then add to it the rest 4 and you know also the % that votes them to position and then + 10-15% of the ones who control in all possible ways the system, those are the ones moving from one group to the next depending where the wind blows and you have a good idea how much of earth population is controlled by NWO.

          • 1691

            So basically we come to the conclussions: 1. politicians are liars and 2. ” earth population is controled by NWO”. .. which means that the people (voters) are manipulated on a grand scale. Do they deserve their leaders or are they victims ? Is there a point in voting when we all know that it means nothing?

          • Promitheas Apollonious

            controlled not 100% but influenced to a great degree yes. Especially in the western system.

          • Tudor Miron

            I see your point now. Yes, population are victims of the system. Thus I would better say that leaders are reflection of current state of collective awareness of population rather than that population deserves it’s leaders. But changing words doesn’t change the situation does it? Why I said that things are changing now is because of internet that exposes people to lots of alternative information.

          • 1691

            True, but the masses do not have access to it. Yet, they are very much aware that everything is wrong, that politicians are liars. People are frustrated as there is little they can do to change it. I do not doubt the awareness of the masses. I witness their frustration from being cornered. I would not blame the people nowadays for the conditions we live in. What Prometeus says is generally right, its common knowledge but we have to face reality: there isn’t much the people can do regarding corrupt politicians. Most countries can only dream about free and fare elections.

          • Concrete Mike

            Dude you cant judge our population on who we vote in…voter turnout is like 38% mostly because politics is garbage and we reject it.

          • Promitheas Apollonious

            i am not judging your population, I am judging all the population, of western countries. But we discuss this when I do have the time.

          • Concrete Mike

            Ok thats fair, take your time. I look forward to yiur reply

    • Pave Way IV

      Saudi Arabia has already given Canada the gift of their radical Wahhabism. Pretty soon, you won’t have to look further than Toronto for a ‘terrorist supporting country’ or human rights violations. It’s pretty much the same in the US – the al Sauds want all muslims everywhere to be in their loyal cult of Saudi-Wahhabi fanatics. Here, a Canadian muslim is complaining about the Wahhabization of Pakistan, but explains the Saudi’s takeover of Islam everywhere:

      Wahabization-Salafization of Pakistan and Muslim Ummah
      Fighting the Terrorists But Supporting Their Ideology

      “…In the Greater Toronto Area out of approximately 150 Sunni mosques and musallahs (makeshift places for worship) only 11 belong to non-Deobandi/Wahabi. The overwhelming majority of mosques and musallahs are run by Deobandis/Wahabis. The reason is not that the majority of Muslims is Wahabi/Salafi rather it is because the majority of Muslims do not have access to petro dollars that are needed to control and run mosques…”

      This will be a particularly bad problem when Saudi Arabia and its oil money are no longer controlled by the al Saud monarchy, but by Wahhabi religious zealots after the revolution. Goodbye, Toronto.

      • Brother Ma

        Didn’t the Toronto Greektown shooter come from Wahabi radicalisation? What did Canada do after he murdered Christian children? Nothing! That is what ! A country with balls would have shut all those Wahab mosques down ,leaving only mainstream ones open. Now that is how you send a message !

    • hhabana

      Trudeau is behaving like a pussy. His fiasco in India should embarrass all Canadians. Pretending he is Indian? He’s bloody white and behave like the leader of a great country.

    • frankly

      Would kissing his hand be the full extent of our humiliation?

    • Brother Ma

      No just liberal PMs. Canada has been sucking up the arses of the US forever. A Conservative would be even more sucking up Saudi arses. We saw Harper!

      Having said that i abhor sucking up to towel heads and I like Canada.

  • northerntruthseeker .

    As a Canadian, I also agree with Jamie’s comment… I look at the fact that Canada screams “human rights’ violations at Saudi Arabia, MEANWHILE TWO Canadian citizens are right now illegally in jail in Germany facing a kangaroo court for nothing more than questioning “history”…. Both Monika and Alfred Schaefer deserve so much better from the appalling and most evil Trudeau regime!

    • christianblood

      Canada abuses and discriminates against its own indigenous peoples who live a life worse than a third world country and yet Canada has the audacity to preach others about ‘human rights’. BTW, both Canada and Saudi Arabia support ISIS and Al-Qaeda “White Helmets” in Syria. Anti-Christ and transgendered Canada spent hundreds of millions of dollars supporting the US and Saudi-backed terrorists that are fighting Syria and Anti-Christ Canada whatever its head-chopping Saudi allies do them!

  • Ivan Freely

    Blame Freeland for running her mouth off. If Trudeau wants to salvage this, he needs to find another foreign minister.

    • Concrete Mike

      Id give her a raise for bitch slapping thebsaudis like that loo

  • S Melanson

    Well I thought the stand taken by Canada was a good start but it did not take long to switch to the path of bad endings.

    Pierre Trudeau bowed to no one and while he was Prime Minister, like him, Canada bowed to no one and that included the US. This is the kind of leadership Canada needs but unfortunately, our current Prime Minister is unwilling to step up to the plate.

    Justin Trudeau Is nothing like his father.

    • Tudor Miron

      Thing is that (bllaming SA) was nothing more than failed PR stunt. I’m not one of those who think that western and most eastern politicians give a hoot about real (not imaginary) ordinary human rights. They sure like to brag about it but surely would not stand behind it. Double standards is the name of their game.

      • S Melanson

        I have to disagree – this is not a PR stunt. It is real with real consequences. In fact, not backing down will put a dent in the belief that in diplomacy, bullying works.

        I edited my post to reflect my realizing the article is misleading. Canada remains defiant and I support this 100% despite the costs of taking this stand with KSA and silence among nations we consider our allies.

        • Tudor Miron

          I see your point. Let’s see what happens. I don’t believe that Canadian government actually care about real human rights (I’m not talking about right of pedera$ts to perform freakish on the streets – for that they will fight for real). Otherwise they would not have supported destruction of Libia and US/Israel’s War against Syria. Is that news for them that SA is a terrorist state with most blatant violations of very basic and real human rights? Surely it is not but they thought it’s OK untill now. There’s something behind this stunt and it has nothing to do with human rights.

          • Ronald

            “Is it news for them that SA is a terrorist state” ?
            Yes this is news for them !
            The Saudi financed propaganda press and Qatar’s Al Jazerra have been feeding them the story that Iran is the “exporter of terrorism” for 30 years.
            You have no idea how completely the press is monitored.
            Canadians and Americans are victims (like the rest of the world), of the Big Money Mind Control.

          • Tudor Miron

            Ronald, I was talking about Canadian government citcles and those are much better informed than ordinary people.

          • Concrete Mike

            Not necessarily Tudor, what we have going on here is that the upper echelons are so entrenched in their reality, they cant see what is really going on, like the think tanks, the monk institute for example are like a canadian aipac.

            I willing to bet a case of beer, our political leaders listen to these “corrupted” thinks tanks that just do group think and follow along.
            Its sad, these people are supposed to be smart but cant see anything past their nose since their blinded by ideology.

            Im glad someone in the government had balls to stand up to saudi….israel next hopefully. We tell us toF off all the time.

          • Ronald

            Tudor, I wish that was true.
            In an earlier SF article titled “This is the real, Americanized Nazi-Dominated Ukraine” in the comments is a comment by Alexander Amproz,
            http:www.voltairenet.org/article/170005
            “The Middle East Counter-Revolution”. by Thierry Meyssan
            It is a real eye-opener into the core of the House of Saud and their big money mind control. Really a must read.

        • frankly

          Not sure if it was planned this way but perhaps events have transpired that force Canada into a principled stand. I have seen complaints before but never such a dramatic reaction. Oh what a tangled web we weave….,

    • Concrete Mike

      Miss chretien yet? He was a crook..but he was our crook lol

    • frankly

      You know the Saudis occasionally become the focus of some pretty negative press. However it seems the Petro-Dollar agreement they made seems to grant them an immunity card. The fact that the Clinton foundation officially received tens of millions from the Saudi’s gets swept under the rug how? Until that sort of transaction is once again illegal we do not have anything even resembling a democracy. When the world’s model of democracy is that corrupt, they are all corrupt, including Canada’s.

      It would seem the Petro Dollar agreement binds the US to the defense of KSA no matter what catastrophe they foist upon humanity. God help Yemen!

  • Snowglobe

    “Canada is seeking help from the UAE and the UK to improve its relations with Saudi Arabia, which have escalated over the Canadian government’s criticizm against Riyadh’s crack down on human rights’ activists, Reuters reported on August 7.”

    Canada needs to leave the Saudi’s alone and to focus on our increasing numbers of domestic problems.

    A good portion of our domestic problems are brought about by never ending “Rights without responsibility”. Every idiot can blurt out all of his rights and when asked, they have no clue about personnel responsibility. They know how to point a finger and blame someone/everybody else,…while sitting in their own pile of dung and doing nothing about it….with their hand waiting for $$$ to be put in it, without doing anything for it of course.

  • Z1

    Democracy stops at the countries borders. Why? Because democracy is always born from (societal) selforganization. You can never impose democracy on foŕeign poeple. You cannot bomb people into democracy. You cannot help any people which are not your people with their selforganization. But you can always be frustrated if another society chooses a different selforganization, and so vent your frustration by criticizing other people and societies.

  • S Melanson

    Warning, this article is misleading. Canada has remained defiant as I have found no evidence that Canada is backing down. Yes, cooling the spat is desired but that is to be expected, but no sign that we back down to appease KSA.

    I edited an earlier post to,reflect this as I lazily assumed the article was an honest portrayal.

    Also, this is not a PR stunt. There is a significant price we are paying for this stand and other nations sit by and remain silent. I support this move regardless of costs and I am certain many Canadians are with me on this.

    To Justin Trudeau: this is the time to step out of the shadow of your father. Do not back down, and show the world.

  • Concrete Mike

    Lets get something out there…Canada is far from perfect.

    We are standing alone againt saudi bullies, with their dirty blood oil money, remember who supports isis and al nusra or whatever the head chopper calls themselves, it aint canada… its saudi.

    The saudis have taken some retaliatory measures but there hurting themselves more.
    Even dumping our currency is good, since were an exporting country. Our goverment does have quisling tendencies, but this is a correct step. Remember how Chrétien said no to go to Iraq…I do, it was obviously a good move. I truly hope our govermebt does not back down, the money people will cry as usual but the people the world over dislike the saudi goverment, come on world stand with us against the evil hous of Saud.

    • S Melanson

      Very well said. I wish I could give more than one uptick for this post.

  • windsor1

    This is an example where incompetence meets reality. “Northerntruthseeker” makes an excellent point. I recall the Zundel trial a few decades ago. I was taught that truth does not fear investigation as opposed to, the “truth of the official narrative” is self evident. Buoyed by their success in championing non relevant social issues such as LGBT, correct use of gender pronouns and women’s rights which the PM considers subordinate to economic issues, the Canadian Foreign Minister and PM found that there are nations that don’t share and embrace their enthusiasm.
    Canadian politicians have embraced the cultural marxist philosophy of stifling free speech on University Campuses and other venues, where you cannot express valid opinions because they might offend someone. Some of these philosophical beliefs have been codified into law. These ideas I submit do not elevate the educational system and purpose of a higher education but rather damages and diminishes it.
    I do not support the human rights record of Saudi Arabia, nor do I endorse the Cultural Marxist agenda of the Canadian Government but you have to choose your battles wisely and express your opinions in the proper forum.
    Two weeks ago, in a cabinet shuffle, reacting to the decades old problem of having all your eggs in one basket (ie. a trading partner that buys 80% of your stuff), a new minister was created to try and diversify away from a single huge trading partner. Already, the government has offended one trading partner by foisting its twisted ideology on the Saudis. Any human being with an IQ higher than a table top, knowing Saudia Arabia’s economic power and human rights record would express their opinion in a different manner than the Foreign Minister did, perhaps through proper diplomatic channels.
    It is ironic that the Canadian Government feels so strongly about the rights of Saudi citizens but has no opinion and is silent on the genocide in occupied Palestine.
    Canada acted similarly in offending the Chinese in the way the government stepped in and prevented the sale of AECON, another potential diversification partner.
    Who can forget the razzle dazzle costume party trip to India to drum up new trade which ended up embarrassing and offending the Indian Government and making Canada’s PM the laughing stock of the world’s late night talk show audience.
    If the PM and his Foreign Minister were working in the private sector they would now be on a job hunt. Rather than offend current and potential trading partners who have de facto imposed sanctions on Canada, the PM should take the economy seriously in order to create new jobs for the cascade of Immigrants he has living in hotels at taxpayer expense. It is becoming more and more clear that a teenager could do as well or a better job in managing the economy than the sitting PM and his cabinet.
    I would be curious to know if some politician had a premonition that Trudeau would become head of the realm when they passed a bank bail-in law before the G20.
    Do these politicians ever sit down and consider what their legacy will be when they leave.

  • S Melanson

    Note: this is a long post, but what is said is important in my view. It is a copy of a post below in response to a few posters.

    Your post, 1691 and Promitheas need to be considered together to peice together the dynamics happening in this world.

    1691 speaks to three things.

    First, our education system, media and politicians indoctrinate the population from birth to adulthood. I know as I was asleep and believed much of what was fed to me. Indoctrination is very powerful and think of what is involved in de-programming a cult member that grew up in the cult and is all they know. By the way, I was a professor at a progressive university at the time the curriculum was targeted to dumb down – shut down critical thinking. I opposed this strongly and paid a price.

    Second is what is termed capacity for action. As 1691 points out, most people are working long hours, paying off debt and have families and obligations. So if they wake up, they find their capacity to act constrained – this is purpose of debt enslavement.

    Thirdly has to do with the social setting the person waking up is embedded in. It is important to point out that a person’s social circle reflects the person so a person waking up will be embedded in a circle that is still indoctrinated and will view you as conspiracy nut. This is how awakening people find themselves increasingly isolated. Awakening others around you is difficult and can result in a backlash. Families and friends actually broke up over the election of Trump so this is very real.

    So can anything be done? Yes, but it is not an easy path. That said, the easiest things to do as a start I give below:

    Actions of government and corporations:

    Support actions of individuals, politicians, corporations and governments that take a stand. Canada is taking a stand and it is a correct one and should be supported. This is regardless of motive or prior history of abuses. If we respond cynically or point out past transgressions, we are playing into the hands of the cabal. Small steps forward eventually add up to a big step.

    Criticise actions or a stand you do not believe is right. this includes inaction such as the silence of Canada’s allies while Canada takes a stand on KSA.

    Actions to take:

    Sharing your values and beliefs with your social circle and peers without lecturing them can have an impact over time – be patient, they have been indoctrinated and it is a process to wake up.

    Social media: post your position on matters important to you to reinforce your values and promote discussion. Do not shut down those with differing viewpoints as you want them to change though dialog. Be open to changing your views as well but not to the point of being a weather vane.

    Write or email your representative at municipal, state/province/federal levels – state the issue and your position and briefly why. This does not require a lot of time or expense and should be done for right action (encouragement and gratitude) and wrong action (rebuke and offer alternative action and why).

    Find like minded people that are awake. This may be a group or organization. This however could involve significant time commitment and a family person would be hard pressed.

    Picking your battles – Tudor Miron points out that ulterior motives are like.y behind Canada criticizing KSA. It is unclear to me what that would be but I have a possible reason and this is relevant to choosing battles to win.

    The war in Yemen has been supported by the West and has involved lucrative arms deals with KSA/UAE – Canada $15 billion light infantry armoured vehicles deal with KSA. The diplomatic spat has put this deal in danger and for Canada, the money involved is significant. So why? Trudeau wants to win back to back majorities and the press is increasingly revealing human rights abuses of the coalition, so the arms deal could be a campaign issue.

    The disastrous Yemen campaign is losing western elite support and this presents,opportunity to get western governments to do the right thing. When Operation Golden Victory began, the west were unreceptive to campaigns to stop supporting the coalition in Yemen. Now is a different story. They want a way out. If they resolve the humanitarian crisis (worst in world) and lead a diplomatic solution and restrict arms deals, the damage of this debacle will be greatly mitigated – elites see this debacle in Yemen as explosive and threatens their ME plans and exposes weakness – solving the crisis by diplomacy (military solution now out of the question) can cut the losses and salvage the situation. This also involves actions that are desired and so elite interests are aligned with those who desire a better world. This alignment means success is much more likely and elite action can be influenced by presenting options to resolve Yemen. Some of my posts are written with this in mind as follow:

    My posts on Yemen communicate to not just readers of South Front but also elites that monitor South Front, which has recently gained their attention.

    I stress in my posts that a military solution in Yemen that is acceptable to elites is not attainable. I predict Houthi victory and explain how and why. My track record has been nearly perfect and this gets elite attention. Elite consensus has largely come to the same conclusion as I. A diplomatic solution is necessary. However, I point out that the coalition diplomatic efforts are not realistic and that time is working against the coalition.

    Coalition is getting weaker – desertion, insubordination, heavy casualties and internal conflict between UAE and KSA. The Houthis are getting stronger. Yemen will be lost and the problem will spill over into neighboring states. The elites do not want this to happen in KSA or UAE – only designated enemies like Iran and Syria.

    I have also revealed the true intentions and objectives of the coalition and pointed out how the Houthis are fully aware and have decisively countered. The Houthis cannot be decieved either militarily of diplomatically. Give them back their country before they take yours was a stark statement I made in one post. What I say I actually believe and my track record means I can make an impact on elite thinking.

    So yes, an individual person can make a difference. And so, Promitheas is correct but I have also qualified. There are obstacles to overcome that must be acknowledged, but they can be overcome. Note also I have paid a heavy price for standing up to power and staying independent.

    Lastly, and optimistically, people are waking up in ever larger numbers. The tipping point is where the elite system of control can no longer plausibly contain this awakening. I believe the tipping point has been reached and so perseverance is needed to see this to the end and that is downfall of the control system. This is good for elites as well. If their control was not broken, they would have destroyed themselves and they know this.

    • Ronald

      S. Melanson:
      Appreciate your words of wisdom, and have a couple of observations and questions.
      Ms. Freeland’s use of “twitter” to make foreign policy statements is counter-productive, as this situation demonstrates. She is not the POTUS. “Foreign Affairs” needs a return to more thought out positions before being put forward to the international community.
      Dion might well be brought back in to quietly keep her from rocking the boat any more and sinking it.
      Does Canada have intelligence agencies with enough perception to realize that the Saudi Wahhabi are hard core to say the least, and that the “goodwill gesture” of relocating up to 250 “White Helmets” might just be a suicide move.
      The drone is a weapon they are familiar with, and Trudeau might have just become a target.

      • S Melanson

        While use of twitter in diplomacy has been criticized, it is increasingly used by governments to communicate to the public. Most foreign ministries formally include twitter as a communication medium in diplomacy.

        It should be noted that the matter of arresting rights activists has been raised with the Saudis by foreign affairs for years – to no effect. Thus, going public with concerns after backchannels fail is not unusual. This is also not viewed as an entirely internal matter of the Kingdom – Raif Badawi was arrested in 2012 for insulting Islam and his wife and three children live in Canada and are now Canadian citizens.

        As for Trudeau and his foreign minister Freeland taking a strong stand, this may have to do with growing criticism of Trudeau’s handling of foreign affairs on the world scene. Freeland replaced Dion in early 2017 as Dion wanted a more muscular foreign policy while Trudeau seemed uninterested and disliked Dion. A new book by Coulon gives a scathing account of Trudeau’s inept handling of Canada’s foreign policy.

        While true that Coulon is biased given his close ties to Dion, his book is resonating with the public. Trudeau not backing down as well as Freeland may be reaction to the book that basically says Trudeau is hauling Canada into the diplomatic wilderness of irrelevance. While this suggests self serving motives, I still support this stand and encourage the PM and Freeland to not backdown. Notably, the over the top reaction of the Saudis has actually done far more to put the spotlight on Saudi human rights violations then all the previous tweets combined. This is also reminiscent of the Canada of old when we took unpopular stands on principle, not popularity contest – and the deafening silence of our allies as we remain defiant will certainly make an impression on the global community. And this is hopefully a. Ginning of steps to,restore Canada’s place on the world scene.

        I will address your questions about intelligence community in a separate post later. Thanks for posing the questions and observations as it got me thinking more about this spat and that it has broader implications I think.

        • Ronald

          S. Melanson;
          You may be correct that most that “most foreign ministries include twitter…….in diplomacy”. However this situation reveals the short comings of using this new and current medium, rather than the more traditional well crafted “statements” from the Dept. of Foreign Affairs. A normally irrelevant tweet turns into a politically in-correct blunder. In today’s “South China Morning Post” an article titled “Saudi Arabia Brings a gun to a knife figh with Canadat”, the author refers to diplomacy by twitter as “diplomacy by laud speaker”.
          I do agree with you that it was good to see Trudeau not back down, I believe it will force him, and all Canadians, to learn of the large differences there are in Islam, and to de-program them selves from the US/UK narrative that the Saudi Sunnis are the good guys and that the Shia Iranians the “bad”.
          As you know the Saudi Sunnis are Wahhabi, or Salafist, they and their Muslim Brotherhood friends are the real problem for mankind.
          I guess my real question is can Trudeau’s government, (most importantly the intel services and military), re-educate themselves sufficiently to protect their PM and Canadians generally ?

          • S Melanson

            Regarding intel services, Canada’s primary agency is CSIS. CSIS work closely with the CIA and MI6 and so is fairly well informed. As for familiarity with Wahhabists/Salafists, I am sure they know a great deal. Certainly the CIA does as they promoted the creation of an insurgency group in Afghanistan made up of extreme Islamic fanatics – this group would drive the Russians out of Afghanistan but later, as Al Queda, turned on their former masters. So the CIA knows and would very likely share this with CSIS.

            So it is not a lack of knowing, it is a problem with policy and why are policies being implemented that do not seem to be in Canada’s best interests?

          • Ronald

            Thank you for your reply. Well I’m sure the CIA knows all about the Wahhabi and their friends the Muslim Brotherhood, but am not sure they would pass that info on to the CSIS, it would be too embarrassing, need to know, ok’d.
            Your last line says it all !
            On the humorous side, strategic-culture.org news published a tongue in cheek piece called “Codename Acor-Sycamore-The Saudi-US-AlQaeda Operation to Reconquer Canada”.
            Or is it humor.

          • S Melanson

            CSIS is basically an extension of the CIA. A few years ago there was a concern of classified US tech secrets being compromised in Canada and it was handled by CSIS agents (meaning the CIA shared details of the tech with CSIS), fortunately no compromise was found. But it is an example of the close relations between agencies and Bill C-51 is making CSIS more like the CIA so becoming mirrors of each other.

            The article is high satire and quite funny, particularly if you get the nuances in the article that reveal the author knows what’s going on. The code name Acor-Sycamore is rather odd though although the North American Sycamore is also known as the plane tree or simply plane – reference to 9-11 and the tasteless tweet showing a plane about to crash into the CNN Tower.

            Well tasteless because they deleted the tweet, much to our disappointment since most Torontonians would be pleased to see the eyesore leveled to the ground.

  • frankly

    Lot’s of interesting comments but nothing about the US.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/is-saudi-arabia-doing-americas-bidding-by-sanctioning-canada/5649966

    This article asserts the US put the Saudis up to this so that we, Canadians, would feel more squeezed in the NAFTA negotiations. Pretty strongly argued!

    Where I agree on a principled stand, our role in the Ukraine and Yemen, along with our plans to reintegrate ISIS certainly put our government in a hypocritical light.

    • S Melanson

      I responded to you regarding my thoughts on the article. The author is very capable and persuasive but careful examination can reveal problems with his arguments. Take a look and appreciate your feedback.

      • frankly

        Read your response to that article way above. You seemed a bit rushed with it and there are points you might have made better with more time. There are all sorts of reasons for a skeptical attitude. Psychopaths are above all else consummate liars, the pros, the platinum standard. So we get little dribs and drabs and try to piece things together.

        For me, not getting caught up in all the drama and remembering some small detail from the beginning has always served as a trusty rudder. Like the white Bronco and O.J. You are a wealthy guy, just go to the courthouse in a nice suit with your lawyer and a sad serious look on your face. Why threaten suicide, hasn’t there been enough death?

        The MSM is always surging ahead with new juicy tidbits, all the while treating yesterday’s well publicized rumour as absolutely irrefutable fact. So I get stuck on little things like dancing Israelis and free fall physics, some of which I learned in University. Or listen to JFK speak at the commencement address in June 63′ and wonder why he got shot later that year? No, crystal clear who and why.

        So favorite trick of psychos, use someone else to do the dirty work. Am I sure, no. No more than I am sure the Saker has not been through some MK ultra type program. Like so many of these cases we may never know. That’s why I am such a fan of Lavrov and Putin. They talk morality and ethics, somehow the way they carry themselves it is easier to believe of them than our crew. Watcing Hillary cackling over the hit did not have a trace of dignity or humility. So it’s a guess that goes through my gut check. I would not put it past Trump.

        • S Melanson

          No doubt I could have argued better but I am unclear from your response how I could improve and what arguments were in need of work. Feedback is how I improve and I when I request feedback from you, it means you have gained my respect and I value what you say. I will take this opportunity to expand my argument on the Trump connection.

          Korybko has written some excellent articles, but I could not agree with his thesis in the article that Trump instigated. Consider that Trump has commented on the internal affairs of Syria, Turkey, North Korea, Ukraine, Russia, China, Canada and Iran and others and uses Twitter extensively to get his point across. The statement that upset KSA was released to the public via Twitter and seems rather mild compared to Trumps Tweets that often threaten sanctions and/or military action. Canada only expressed concern.

          So would Trump instigate a major rebuke backed up with retaliatory measures for a statement of concern regarding an internal matter. For Trump to do so would undermine his entire approach to foreign policy which is heavy handed and intrusive, far more so than Canada’s expression of concern – note we did not state we would apply sanctions if the activist was not released, which is what just happened regarding Turkey which Turkey expressed anger at US meddling in her internal affairs.

          If it was revealed that Trump backs KSA against Canada, supporting the case that foreign nations not interfere in internal matters of sovereign states, this would be thrown back at Trump by Turkey, not to mention a long list of other nations. This is not all.

          Trudeau is standing firm and backing his foreign minister and most Canadians know what is what by and large regarding KSA and Trudeau is well aware how unpopular capitulating to KSA would be. Trudeau can expect broad support including the parties in opposition and this can enhance Trudeau’s stature on the international scene.

          And so I see such a move by Trump could backfire by weakening his negotiating hand with Trudeau but most importantly, Trump would not instigate something that brings into question the US policy of interventionism.

          Note that I generally do not form opinions on tidbits of information. I rely on many diverse sources over a period of time. So my arguments above are based on a long history of US intervention in the internal affairs of nations – the US has rebuked internal meddling but that is when other nations try to meddle with US internal matters – double standards in US policies are pervasive. The policy of intervention has been consistent across presidential administrations and Trump’s administration is no different.

          Lastly, examine Korybko’s stance on foreign interference in the internal affairs of sovereign nations. He supports KSA’s position and only criticizes KSA hypocracy. But is interference in a nations internal affairs sometimes warranted? I would say yes there are circumstances such as military sales or strategic materials like uranium or plutonium. Can a country attach conditions to the sale of military equipment? If the answer is no, then the entire basis for US sanctions is undermined. I could expand on this argument more rigorously but I think this makes,the main point.

          I have read your posts and you are capable of deep critical thinking but I get the impression you hold back. If this is due to self doubt, don’t, you are quite capable and others on this site could benefit. Of course applying critical analysis often leads to conclusions that are outside the main stream – this is to be expected so do not let it deter you. I was calling Houthi victory before the offensive on Hodeidah had even started in mid-June when most predicted coalition victory – I stuck to my prediction even when coalition propaganda made it seem victory was imminent. I knew better. So believe in yourself.

          • frankly

            Ok, it’s a bit daunting but I will have a go. I noticed the same thing in your first post on this article. A pretty clear dismissal but then you sort of point out stuff that weakens your case, a bit confusing for the reader.

            I do not see how Trump could be caught in this action. Also it seems extremely likely there is no contradiction for him. They are the ultimate judge, to what institution have the States acquiesced to in 75 years? Or longer for that matter, except of course military force. So how dare Canada have an opinion, that is the US’s turf. His personal turf to take it a bit further. Shut up or I take your head, your lumber and ruin your milk industry.

            From your first post on this subtopic the last paragraph confuses me. The first sentence seems to contradict your previously established thesis.

            “Trudeau is a target as leader and this is a strategy to weaken the leader and make more amenable to trade terms favourable to the US. The spat between KSA and Canada does not fit into Trumps strategy and in fact could do harm – if it be found Trump instigated, it could actually lead to rallying around Trudeau, strengthening Trudeau’s hand in negotiation.”

            You seem to just state that the spat between KSA and Canada does not fit Trumps strategy, I believe you did it previously too- without really establishing why. It actually does seem like something he would do to me. Get somebody on the defensive with personal attacks and then get another bully to increase the sense of isolation/error by making a huge scene over nothing.

            Perhaps a rule of thumb might be if you don’t have Nukes you don’t have a right to an opinion.

            This sentence seems a nice introduction to how you do see Trump’s negotiating strategy but you leave us in the dark.
            “This is not how I see Trumps negotiation strategy with Canada.” From your 1st post.

            I liked Korybko’s arm twisting analogy. It seemed the main catalyst for Trumps alleged action and his personal dislike of Trudeau just made it like a double check in Chess, do you know the game a bit? Often one can block or evade one check but you only get one move and the other check can be the clincher.

            So your dismissal seems to be lacking a few key ingredients, for me anyway. Some of your arguments against actually worked for, in my interpretation. When you know a topic as well as you obviously do I think there is a tendency to write as if we have already hashed most of this out and I know something already of your logic. I have arguments with people that act as if the voice in their head is so loud, surely I can hear it.

            I sometimes am tempted to use complicated reason and have messed up badly, people often assuming the antithesis of my point. Now when that urge sets in I go to the other extreme and say something as plainly as I can, often adopting a southern accent in my writing to get the point across very simply. Southern’s do that, they talk dumb and then walk away with all the money. It’s a clever ploy and most Northerners fall for it, but I digress.

            You write like a university prof. Sometimes whipping around your beautiful use of English as a fancy, intimidating, substitute for a clearly laid out point. Don’t be too insulted, but you can win the argument and maybe be wrong.

            Two of my sisters have PHD’s. It is not very clear to me when they get angry, whether i am an ass or hitting any particular nail very squarely. Seems likely a combination of both and thus my lack of confidence and hesitancy.

            I have no qualification, just a lifelong passion for challenging authority.

          • S Melanson

            Your qualifications are revealed in what you write. You did a very good job convincing me that Korybko is on to something. For some reason, his arguments did not quite resonate with me but your critique affected me differently. The reason your response was persuasive was I felt you had captured Trump as a person and extrapolated to how he may act out very convincingly. Your arguments felt more in line with who Trump is then my own arguments.

            Commenting and debating points of view is how we come to the best explanation based on what we know and looking at the problem in different ways. In this case, you made a better case than I did and one of my skills is recognizing the better argument even if not mine. By the time I made the call on Yemen that the Houthis would win, how they would win and why, I had done several weeks of research involving dozens of sources and of course reading comments here at South Front and elsewhere. So when I made my call I was pretty confident but was still surprised at how accurate I was. But at the start, my initial thinking is very rarely where I land.

            Why Canada challenged KSA and why KSA harshly responded are questions to be explored, but certainly a very good start. You provided a good counterpoint to my arguments and this was something I saw you capable of. Not many can do good counterpoint and you are likely better than me. My skills are better at synthesizing points of view to come to the most likely explanation for the problem.

            I have been a professor but also an executive, project manager in the private sector as well as dishwasher and salad boy at restaurants. But I also work in the intelligence field and my risk assessments have had measurable impact on elite thinking and actions.

            South Front is being monitored by elites so they can be influenced by what is said here. I may call on you again to challenge my thinking. I have a thick skin so no worries about offending me and besides, I often deserve it as I am human and flawed like everyone else.

          • frankly

            I must say our conversations have been most enjoyable to me. Previously, on a forum I was eventually banned from I wound up making buddies with a former US diplomat. Wound up meeting and spending hours over several days. Your intellect reminds me of him. Very smart but with a huge heart.

            I read through a bit of your stuff and if I had to guess I would say this posting today seemed like you were distracted or too much caffeine. You were not as dialed in as some of your other posts have been. Perhaps it was the Canadian content and your patriotism was vetoing a part of your thinking.

            In any case I am glad you are thick skinned. My time in the service created a sort of knee jerk defense mechanism, One time after the service I came up with a particularly simple yet powerful nickname for a bully at work. He quit a really good job as a result. He deserved what he got, but he had a wife and two kids. I still feel awful to think of it. I hate that potential in me, it comes out and even shocks me. Aggressive people can really regret trying me out. I find Canadians can dish it out pretty good but not so good at receiving. I much prefer an entirely respectful and honest exchange. I recently was on a job site where my daughter was working as well. One fellow unknowingly stepped sideways. From then on he called me sir and gave me much more than needed personal space.

            I saw a TED lecture once about a prof who insisted being wrong put us in an elevated position to learn. It made absolute sense. Arguing and winning one is simply honing their debate skills often. Whereas being open to error one stays open to refining and growing. Your attitude is highly commendable. I like the work of a Dr. Brene Brown who has done research on shame. As to offending you, I would hate to think I caused anyone to feel shame but a little healthy guilt is a good thing. My experience of living in Canada has humbled me considerably, as I get more mature there seems to be ever more stuff that I don’t know enough about and not enough time to learn it all. You seem to be a very voracious learner. Thanks again.

  • frankly

    Here’s a thought. They gonna get all pissy with us, send all those white helmets we are supposed to integrate into our society over to KSA. I would think they would be right at home.