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Eric Zuesse: “MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine’s Guilt Now Proven”

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Written by Eric Zuesse; Originally appeared on strategic-culture.org

Finally, a clear and convincing — and unrefuted — case can now be presented to the public, as to precisely whom the guilty party was, that downed the MH17 Malaysian airliner over Ukraine on 17 July 2014, and why it was done. The complete case, which will be fully documented here, displays unequivocally who needed the MH17 murders (of 298 persons) to be perpetrated. This mass-murder was done for one leader’s very pressing obsession. For him, it simply had to be done, and done at that precise time.

Eric Zuesse: "MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine’s Guilt Now Proven"

The full MH17 case will be presented here, to be judged by the public, because no court of law which possesses the power to bring this (or even any) case on the MH17 murders, is willing to do so, and because the evidence in this 17 July 2014 case has become overwhelming, and is unrefuted. This evidence is accepted by both sides. But it still remains effectively hidden from the publics in the United States and its allied countries. (The present news-report, which is the first ever to present this entire case, is submitted to all news-media in English-speaking countries, so that any of them that wishes to provide its audience access to this uncontested and conclusive evidence in the MH17 case can do so, by publishing this article. Any of them that won’t, don’t want their audience to have access to the conclusive evidence in this case, because this article is being made available to all of them to publish, free of charge; so, there is no other reason not to publish it.)

The complete evidence will be described, and all of the conclusive evidence is linked-to, proving who perpetrated, and who demanded, the shoot-down on 17 July 2014 of the Malaysian airliner MH17.

This article will start by demonstrating the most important thing, and will demonstrate it by means of links to the most conclusive evidence of all. This is the evidence which absolutely proves that the official Netherlands-headed investigation into this matter is an intentional and utter fraud — a fraud which has already been conclusively answered and exposed by the Russian Government. (Netherlands headed the investigation because 196 of the 298 murder-victims were Dutch.) Russia’s response provided, in excruciating detail, not only clear disproofs of the Netherlands-headed investigation’s conclusions of Russian guilt, but also (and on the basis of the very same evidence that the official investigation had made public on 24 May 2018) provided the still-unrefuted (but nonetheless still effectively hidden) proofs of Ukraine’s actual and incontestable guilt, in this mass-murder. This evidence, of the Netherlands team’s fraudulence, carries the investigation a large part of the way toward its ultimate conclusion, regarding whom the person was who had demanded Ukraine to commit this crime.

Incidentally, the Netherlands Government had partially funded the coup that in February 2014 overturned Ukraine’s Government and installed the new regime, which regime is allied with the United States Government and actually perpetrated the MH17 shoot-down. The Government of Netherlands is not a neutral in this case that it is judging. It had helped install the present regime in Ukraine. In fact, as you can see here, Netherlands’ Government had been the largest single contributor to Ukraine’s Hromadske TV, which was propagandizing to exterminate the residents in Ukraine’s former Donbass region, which breakaway region had voted over 90% for Ukraine’s Democratically elected President, whom Obama’s coup had just overthrown. This operation in Ukraine is an extension from the corrupt Nazi Prince Bernhard’s having established in Netherlands in 1954 the secretive Bilderberg group to coordinate NATO’s efforts for the US and its allies to conquer ultimately the world. He got caught in 1976, for one of his skimming operations, a million-dollar kickback from Lockheed Corporation. Holland’s Deep State is anything but benign.

So, Russia’s response, on 17 September 2018, used that Netherlands-headed team’s own documentation, to disprove that team’s attribution of guilt to Russia, and to prove conclusively Ukraine’s guilt as having been the actual perpetrator of this mass-murder. Thus, the Netherlands-headed team includes the actual perpetrator, Ukraine, and not only the Netherlands Government, which had helped overthrow Ukraine’s prior and democratically elected Government and bring Ukraine’s current regime into power in February 2014, just months prior to the MH17 shoot-down, which resulted from that US coup.

Most readers who click onto the links here will be shocked. What will shock them is the evidence, because it has not been published in The West (except summarized in less than a half-dozen obscure news-media — and, even there, generally not documented, such as it is here).

The links will document and fully prove this stunning turnabout, from Russia to Ukraine. The documentation that was cited by Ukraine and Ukraine’s fellow team-member (the team’s leader) Netherlands, against Russia, on May 24th of 2018, contained previously unrecognized details (which were first pointed out in the Russian presentation on September 17th of 2018) which irrefutably convict Ukraine. Consequently, Russia’s response was ignored in The West, despite that presentation’s having been based upon the very same items of evidence that had been introduced by the Netherlands-led team on May 24th. Thus, the items of evidence, there, are the same that the Netherlands-led team had themselves provided. The items of evidence here are not in dispute.

The current article will be the first-ever to hone-in on the especially shocking key data in Russia’s data-packed September 17th response, the key evidence that Russia was calling attention to there, and which prove Ukraine’s guilt beyond any reasonable doubt — prove it on the basis of the very same evidence that had been introduced by Ukraine’s own team in their presentation four months earlier. Using the other side’s evidence to convict that other side is what makes this denouement the stunning turnabout that it is.

The Netherlands-headed Ukrainian team still refuses to answer the Russian presentation, which responds to the Ukrainian team’s May 24th presentation. Western ‘news’-media have likewise almost completely ignored Russia’s response. (One Dutch medium did report on it but dismissed it by focusing on a subordinate part: their report said and focused on “Russia now claims that the video images the investigators used to track the missile’s transport to the Ukraine, were manipulated.” However, the part of Russia’s presentation that will be discussed in the present article was being entirely ignored in that Dutch news-report, which, as you will see here, has nothing to do with any claim of manipulated evidence. Britain’s BBC likewise focused-in on the “manipulated evidence” that Russia’s presentation had attacked. The Washington Post instead headlined “Who spread disinformation about the MH17 crash? We followed the Twitter trail”, and it focused-in on how polarized the public is over the MH17 case. The West’s ‘news’-coverage was virtually entirely misdirection and disinformation, as you will recognize from what follows here. And the evidence here is linked-to, so that you can see it for yourself.)

Russia’s response documented beyond any question, at all, that this airliner was shot down by the Ukrainian Government, and that Western (i.e., US-allied) ‘news’media have been and are covering-up this crucial historical fact and The West’s still-ongoing lies about the downing of MH17.

Those lies are the basis of US and EU anti-Russia sanctions, which remain in effect despite the basis for those sanctions having been exposed unequivocally, on September 17th, to be based on lies. Thus, continuing to hide those lies is crucial to the liars. This is the reason why Russia’s blazingly detailed presentation on September 17th has been virtually ignored — to protect the actually guilty. The evidence here proves that those sanctions, themselves, are nothing but frauds against the public, and crimes against Russia — ongoing additional crimes, which have been, and remain, effectively hidden till now.

The reader can see and consider here all of the conclusive evidence in the MH17 case — it can be reached via the present article’s links. Unlike the ‘news’-reports in The West’s ‘news’-media, the presentation here is not presuming readers’ trust, but is instead providing to all readers access to the actual evidence — evidence that is accepted by both sides. That’s what the links here are for: examination by any skeptics.

Skepticism in judging anything is not only good; it is essential to justice. Trust should never be given; it should only be earned. Otherwise, no democracy can function. Only dictatorship can function in a country that’s controlled by lies, and by liars. Liars are believed by people who have faith in them. Thus, faith in anything or anyone can poison judgment. The way to test the case that is presented here is to click onto a link wherever one wants to see and examine the evidence. Without examining (usually by spot-checking) the evidence, no reader can intelligently judge any case. Dictatorship is almost inevitable in a counry where spot-checking of the actual evidence isn’t the norm. Most ‘news’-media don’t even enable such spot-checking. This is why ‘news’-media are so often actually propaganda-media instead.

So, here’s the complete MH17 case, for any reader to judge:

The last announcement from the official investigation, the Netherlands-headed “Joint Investigative Team” (JIT), was on 24 May 2018, and it headlined “Update in criminal investigation MH17 disaster”. It said:

The JIT is convinced that the BUK-TELAR [missile and launcher] that was used to down MH17, originates from the 53rd Anti Aircraft Missile brigade (hereinafter 53rd brigade), a unit of the Russian army from Kursk in the Russian Federation. … This fingerprint has been compared with numerous images of BUK-TELARS, both Ukrainian and Russian ones. The only BUK-TELAR on which this combination of characteristics also was found, is a BUK-TELAR that was recorded several times when it joined a convoy of the 53rd brigade on 23 – 25 June 2014.

Consequently, the JIT presumes that within the 53rd brigade and within the circle around it, people have knowledge about the operation in which that particular BUK-TELAR was deployed. … Already in September 2016, the JIT disclosed that MH17 was downed with a BUK missile of the 9M38 series. …

The missile engine’s casing shows the number 9 д 1318869032.

Typical of Western ‘news’-media’s coverage of that presentation, was CNN’s report the same day, May 24th of 2018. It was headlined “Missile that downed MH17 ‘owned by Russian brigade’”. It stated: “‘At the time this area was under control of pro-Russian separatists,’ said Fred Westerbeke, chief prosecutor of the National Prosecutor’s Office of the Netherlands. The Buk launcher of the 9M38 series ‘was transported from the territory of the Russian Federation and was returned to that territory of the Russian Federation afterwards’.”

The Ukrainian side claimed they had finally found evidence which would enable them definitively to place the blame for the MH17 shoot-down on Russia. So, the very next day, May 25th, Britain’s Telegraph bannered “Netherlands and Australia call for compensation for MH17 victims as they accuse Russia of downing plane” and reported that “Australia and the Netherlands have said they hold Russia legally responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17 over Ukraine in 2014 and will seek reparations for relatives of the 298 people killed.” This demand against Russia was coming “the day after the Dutch-led international investigation concluded that the Russian military had deployed the Buk surface-to-air missile that shot down the plane.”

Four months later, on 17 September 2018, the Russian Ministry of Defense youtubed its response, which is titled “Briefing on newly discovered evidence pertaining to the crash of the MH17 flight”. It presented the actual history of the Buk missile and launcher which Ukraine and the other Governments on the JIT said had brought down the MH17. (The JIT includes four countries, Netherlands, Ukraine, Belgium, and Australia, with a fifth, Malaysia, having been brought in only later, after it finally agreed to allow Ukraine a veto over any conclusions that the team will publish. Malaysia’s participation started on 4 December 2014; but whether Malaysia has actually been allowed to play a role in the ‘investigation’ isn’t clear.) Russia, during the intervening months after the JIT’s May 24th presentation, had tracked down all of those serial numbers, 8868720, and 1318869032, and 9M38, and found (as you can see there by clicking on each, especially onto the “Briefing” itself) that after the acquisition of the launcher and missile, by Ukraine in 1986, from Russia, that missile and its launcher had always, and constantly since their transfer to Ukraine in 1986, remained in Ukraine, and never again were located in Russia. So: if the JIT’s supplied evidence is authentic — which the Ukrainian team asserts it to be — then it outright convicts Ukraine. This is an evidentiary checkmate, against the Ukrainian side.

With the passage now of years, the precise cause of the shooting-down of the Malaysian passenger plane MH17 on 17 July 2014 has been becoming clearer and clearer, despite the rigorous continuing attempts by Western ‘news’ media to cover it up and to hide from the public the growing and by-now irrefutable evidence (presented here) that clearly shows what and who actually brought down this airliner.

In the years since I headlined on August 24th of 2014 the news, “MH-17 ‘Investigation’: Secret August 8th Agreement Seeps Out: Perpetrator of the Downing in Ukraine, of the Malaysian Airliner, Will Stay Hidden”, the key fact about the official ‘investigation’ has actually been that the Government of Ukraine was, on 8 August 2014, granted veto-power over any official finding which would be produced by the Joint Investigative Team. On 20 November 2014, Russian Television headlined “Dutch government refuses to reveal ‘secret deal’ into MH17 crash probe” and reported that Holland’s science-publishers Elsevier had filed for this information under that country’s Freedom of Information Act, and the Government simply refused to comply with that law. The leaders of Western nations apparently want the black-box and much other basic data in their possession to remain hidden, and the four nations had signed this secret agreement to allow the Government of Ukraine to block any report that incriminates Ukraine in the MH17 shoot-down. But additional evidence has nonetheless become public, and all of it confirms and adds yet further details to the explanation that was first put forth by the retired German Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko, whose independent investigation had concluded that Ukrainian Government fighter-jets intentionally shot down this civilian plane. He did not rule out the possibility that a Buk missile had simultaneously been used there, but he made clear that at least one fighter-jet had been used in this shoot-down.

However, if those parts of a Buk missile, which were the focus of the Netherlands team’s presentation on May 24th, were indeed retrieved from the crash-site as that team claims, then a Buk missile had also hit the MH17. Serious question would nonetheless exist as to whether that Buk was fired by troops who were working for Ukraine, or instead for Russia (or else for Donbas separatists who were working in conjunction with Russia, which was Ukraine’s and America’s original version of the event).

Precisely what the method was, by which the direct perpetrators brought down the MH17, has gradually become clearer, despite this continuation of Western secrecy (and Ukraine’s veto-power over the ‘findings’) regarding the contents of the black boxes, and of the US satellite images, and of the Ukrainian air-traffic-control radar recordings, and of other evidence-sources that are still being held secret by The West and not made available to their ‘news’ media nor to anyone outside a tight official circle of those Western nations’ intelligence agencies.

But now, Russia has actually — on 17 September 2018 — exposed the outright fraudulence of the JIT’s 24 May 2018 presentation, and The West (the US Government’s allies) entirely ignored the conclusive evidence that that presentation by the JIT itself actually contained and to which Russia was pointing, so that there can no longer be reasonable doubt about The West’s intentional and still ongoing fraudulence regarding the entire MH17 matter.

Also entirely ignored in the Ukrainain team’s ‘explanation’ of the event is why Ukraine’s air-traffic control had guided the MH17’s pilot to fly over the conflict-zone where Ukraine’s civil war was being waged and where Ukraine’s war-planes were bombing. The MH17’s pilot was instructed by Ukraine’s air-traffic control to take that path instead of the one that the airline had planned and that had become normal during the civil war. This was highly abnormal, and it doomed the MH17. Clearly, only Ukraine’s Government could, and did, do that — change the route, and for only that one plane. Yet, still, the Netherlands-headed team blames Russia and is trusted in The West, but Russia is not. (Now, why would that be?)

Russia has constantly been releasing its own investigations regarding MH-17; and, in the process, Russia on September 17th not only provided further details as to how the downing actually happened (it wasn’t by mistake, as the West contends it was), but they have also, in prior presentations, exposed the absurd impossibility of the Ukrainian Government’s ‘explanation’ of this event (that only a Buk had been used), which is the ‘explanation’ that is still being parroted unquestioningly and unflinchingly by officials in Washington, Europe, and NATO, and also by Western ‘news’ media. (As my news-report on 24 August 2014 explained, that secret August 8th agreement was signed by the four governments which formed the JIT team and which had been handed by Malaysia the black boxes to study — Ukraine, Belgium, Australia, and Netherlands — and the JIT granted to the Ukrainian Government a veto over anything that the team’s official report would say. This is probably the reason why the subsequent officially released report on those black boxes said essentially nothing. It was a brazen insult to the 298 victims’ families. The presumption has been that all of them will have faith, not be skeptical, regarding the JIT team.)

Though Russia doesn’t possess those black boxes (which, by chance, were handed by the pro-Russian separatists to the Malaysian Government’s representative, and yet that Government handed them to Netherland’s Government instead of to Russia’s — apparently trusting Netherlands more than trusting Russia or even themselves), Russia does possess, and publicly reveals, evidence that’s conclusive on its own; and it is 100% consistent with Haisenko’s reconstruction of the event, regardless whether a Buk was involved or not. Russian Television had issued in October 2014 a 25-minute documentary on the event, and it starts with people whom they interviewed in that region, who were describing their having seen at least one and perhaps two planes rising toward the airliner, and then the airliner coming down from the sky. Other witnesses told them that they saw an SU-25 fighter plane take off in that general area just minutes before the airliner came down.

FIRST, THE MISSING BBC REPORT:

The BBC had previously posted to their website on 23 July 2014, just six days after the event itself, a news report in Russian via their Russian service (fortunately archived by Global Research), about the downing, but they quickly removed it without explanation. Fortunately, however, some Russian-speakers had managed to download it before it was yanked; and at least two of those downloads were posted to youtube, the first one having been posted there on 28 July 2014, with English subscripts, and with the headline, “UKRAINE Eyewitness Confirm Military Jet Flew Besides MH17 Airliner: BBC Censors Video 25Jul2014”. (It’s gone now, but, actually, several witnesses, and not just one, were interviewed there — there wasn’t just one “Eyewitness”.) Furthermore, Global Research posted on 10 September 2014 a transcript of it, headlining, “Deleted BBC Report. ‘Ukrainian Fighter Jet Shot Down MHI7’, Donetsk Eyewitnesses.” (The video itself is still at youtube and it will be linked-to just below here, so that you will be able to view it.)

The interviews by the BBC were done by their reporter Olga Ivshina. (Also see http://archive.is/vFoh9.) She had filmed local residents in the crash-debris area. In one passage of her 23 July 2014 news-report, there were two residents simultaneously who described what they had seen. One of them said, “And there was another aircraft.” The other continued immediately, in order to describe the other plane, “a military one, beside it [‘it’ being the airliner]. Everybody saw it. It was proceeding underneath below the civilian one.”

Here is the second, and clearer, version of that clip. (It’s the one that’s still live at youtube.) The key portion on it is at 0:38-042 in the video:

That was the 9 September 2014 repost of it, with the same subscript-translation into English, only the visual is sharper.

And here is an apology, dated 25 July 2014, by the BBC, for their having removed their original video of this interview — and yet they still didn’t repost it; they still continue to blockade it; even today the only versions available, of these, the earliest recorded interviews of people who said they witnessed the event, are the independently posted ones, but here is the BBC’s apology:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/russian/blogs/2014/07/140725_blog_editors_bbc_story_republished.shtml

Here, then, is that BBC apology google-translated into English: http://archive.is/kc291

So: clearly, BBC has done all that they could to remove evidence, which they had mistakenly broadcast, which had fit the retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko’s reconstruction of the event, and which contradicted the US-Ukrainian reconstruction of it — the reconstruction that Western ‘news’ media project, and on the basis of which US President Barack Obama won from the EU stiff increases in, and subsequent extensions of, the economic sanctions against Russia, all on the basis of lies.

(Subsequently, on 17 December 2018, South Front headlined “‘EDITORIAL BOARD DEMANDS BLOOD’: INSIDE LOOK AT HOW BBC TRIES TO FIND PROOF OF RUSSIAN INFLUENCE ON YELLOW VEST PROTESTS”, and they reported that Ivshina had texted to a BBC stringer, on the streets of Paris, instructions of what story-lines were wanted by BBC management regarding the “Yellow Vests” demonstrations against French President Emmanuel Macron, ”Yes, I’m searching for the angles))) The editorial board wants blood, yo)))”. “And if you find these ultra-rightists [at the protests], will they talk about Putin and Moscow? Well, at least the Russians go to the protests, right?” Ivshina was instructing her French stringer what to look for, in order for her to be able to report the type of ‘news’ that her bosses wanted to publish. Perhaps Ivshina had been chastised in 2014 and had learned to never again be caught reporting anything that challenges the UK Government’s anti-Russia propaganda-line.)

So, this valuable eyewitness-testimony to the MH17 event is available despite Western ‘news’ media (or, more-accurately, propaganda-media), and the reason for the news-suppression is clear to anyone who views that BBC 23 July 2014 report, which presents several eyewitnesses, interviewed separately as individuals, not as a group, and yet all of whose testimonies — perhaps despite Ivshina’s wish for them not to say this — report having observed the very same basic narrative, of at least one military jet rising toward the airliner just before it came down.

In other words: it is clear that BBC had yanked this report because it didn’t confirm the West’s story-line, which says that Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists had fired a “Buk” ground-based missile at the airliner, thinking that the civilian plane was a Ukrainian Government war-plane about to bomb them and their families. But, first of all, the Ukrainian Government was virtually admitting there that they were bombing these villagers, which means that they were perpetrating an ethnic cleansing operation there, which indeed that Government was doing; but, secondly, the Ukrainian Government’s statement also acknowledged that if the event had happened in that way, it would have been unintentional, a tragic accident on the part of the rebels there. (The JIT’s line now is that it was instead an outright Russian attack against the MH17.)

So, then, why did “the international community” respond with massive economic sanctions against Russia on account of this downing — by, as it turns out, Ukraine? The whole Western propaganda position was designed for a public of sheer fools, if not of outright psychopathic ones, who cared not a bit about the plights of the victims of an ethnic-cleansing campaign. They cared only about victims in “The West.” The West’s basic story-line doesn’t make sense without recognizing that we were financing ethnic cleansing to clear the land in southeastern Ukraine, and that any support that Russia would be providing to those separatists would have been defensive in nature, not offensive. Yet Russia gets the blame when this passenger jet goes down? Even though Ukraine’s air-traffic control had guided the pilot there? In any case, that story-line of Russian guilt is false, from start to finish. And now (at least after 17 September 2018) it is finished. But Western ‘news’-media still continue to broadcast the lies, as if it weren’t.

Here is how outright ludicrous it actually is, and sound reason in itself that anyone in the military had to have known, from the very get-go, that the “Buk” ‘explanation’ was a line of pure malarkey:

THE RUSSIAN DOCUMENTARY:

The 22 October 2014 Russian documentary was titled, “MH-17: The Untold Story,” and it presents, among much else, videos of several “Buk” missiles being fired on other occasions, just to show how utterly ludicrous the initial Ukraine-US-and-allied ‘explanation of the MH17 event was. On 5 November 2014, I summarized that, with screen-shots from the Russian documentary.

So, when even the BBC’s reporter wasn’t able to find anyone in that entire region who recounts having seen anything of the sort, just how likely would the Ukrainian Government’s line on that matter — that not only was this done by a lone Buk but it was fired by (at first) pro-Russian separatists, and (then) by the Russian army — actually be? Obviously, any person with any military knowledge whatsoever had to have recognized virtually immediately that the Ukrainian Government’s story-line on the MH-17 downing was a pile of sheer malarkey, but did anyone in the Western ‘news’ media report that it was — that the Western line there was not just a lie, but an absurd one, one that requires an ignorant public in order for it to be able to be taken seriously at all by the public? One that requires an ignorant public, to remain ignorant? This is supposed to be the Western ‘news’ media, with a free press, and a democracy, a truthfully informed citizenry, who can vote based upon truths, not on mere lies?

Here is the way that the Russian TV documentary opens:

Several of the locals there told Russian TV’s reporter that they had seen a military jet rise toward the airliner; and not a one of these individuals were any of the same ones who had testified the exact same thing to the BBC’s reporter, whose news-piece had been squelched by her managers.

HERE IS HOW MH17 WAS SHOT DOWN:

Now, to the substance of the explanation of how this plane was actually brought down:

Earlier, I had summarized the evidence for Peter Haisenko’s reconstruction of the event, but I questioned his having accepted the eyewitness testimony to the effect that the planes that shot down the airliner were SU-25s. In Haisenko’s Russian TV interview, he stuck by his belief that it was probably SU-25s instead of SU-27s or Mig 29s, both of which are also in the Ukrainian Air Force, and all three of which use 30-millimeter machine-guns or “cannons.” But since the fact is that all three of those attack-plane models use machine-guns (“cannons”) with 30-caliber bullets (which is the size that clearly was used, especially on the cockpit), the effect would be identically-sized round 30-caliber entry-holes, no matter what. My last major report on that evidence, prior to the 8 August 2014 formation of the JIT and their mutual agreement to report nothing that would be incriminating to Ukraine’s Government regarding the MH17 incident, was “Systematically Reconstructing the Shoot-Down of the Malaysian Airliner: The Guilt Is Clear and Damning.” That basically fills in (and the links, in that report, document with pictures and videos that) the actual way that this plane was downed, and that why it was downed was “to get the EU to go along with stiffened sanctions against Russia”. Obama (via the regime that he had installed in a February 2014 coup in Kiev) succeeded there in getting the international sanctions against Russia that he had been wanting. Obama, and certainly not Putin — and now we know it wasn’t Russia at all (not even if a Buk was involved) — was the key person behind this. The 298 MH17 murder-victims on 17 July 2014 were murdered by Barack Obama (via his agents such as Victoria Nuland — she ran Obama’s Ukrainian operation), just as clearly as (if not even more clearly than) Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman al-Saud (via his agents at the Sauds’ Istanbul Consulate) murdered Jamal Khashoggi on 2 October 2018.

International actions (such as economic sanctions) are based upon such fabrications, and ‘evidence’ taken out of its full context, as this from the far-right Forbes commentator Paul Roderick Gregory, but there are no such fakes, nor out-of-context items of evidence, in the case that has been presented here. That’s the difference between news-reporting versus propaganda; but, in the United States today, propaganda passes as if it were ‘news,’ and authentic news that doesn’t fit the regime’s cooked-up narrative is suppressed entirely. The scandal isn’t just Obama, and it’s not just Ukraine; it is also the propaganda-organs, and even (though to the least extent) their audiences who subscribe to such lying ‘news’-media.

Western governments, and their ‘news’ media, are treating their citizens, their own publics, not really as citizens, but as suckers. They are treating them as subjects, instead of as citizens. This is not authentic democracy. It is neo-feudal; it is, in fact, fascism.

The entire “Buk” ‘explanation’ of the downing of the Malaysian airliner (the idea that only a Buk missile caused the physical wreckage which was found) is for suckers only; and everyone in official circles, and in the press, who peddles it, is just as fake as the ridiculous story-line that he or she is peddling. To fall for it, after being provided all of the authentic evidence, which has been linked-to here, one would have to be a willing slave to psychopaths. In this case, the psychopath was Obama, who not only had perpetrated a bloody coup to overthrow the democratically elected President of Ukraine in February 2014 but who also was now struggling, and had a very pressing obsession, to get the EU to accept his sanctions against Russia for its having accepted the pleas of Crimeans (who had voted 75% for that President) to become restored again to Russia. The 14 July 2014 mass-murder that was set up to be blamed against Russia was Obama’s trick that enabled him to win his way on this.

CONCLUSIONS:

By no means do we know every detail about how the MH17 was shot down, but what we do now know for certain is that the narrative for that event which was supplied by Ukraine’s team on May 24th — the official account of how it happened — isn’t just false; it is outright fraudulent. Ukraine’s team supplied evidence which, if it is authentic, actually convicts Ukraine. And Western ‘news’-media hide this crucial fact.

So, now, we know why Western governments have hidden, instead of making available to the public, the black-box data and the other evidence that they still refuse to provide to the public. They are aiming to scam the public, not to inform it. Lying is their game. They might call it ‘patriotism.’ Traitors would likely do that. Traitors to any country could do it. And, so, they do. Their believers constitute their political base.

Unfortunately, anyone they fool becomes their tool, and everyone else is purely their victim — helpless to oust (much less, to replace) the tyrants who make things bad for everyone but themselves and their colleagues, the insiders at the very top.

Just the day before the MH17 shoot-down, Bloomberg News had headlined, on 16 July 2014, “EU Readies Russia Sanctions Amid US Pressure on Ukraine”, and reported that “the US urges the bloc to take a tougher stance against Moscow.” The day before that, on July 15th, Bloomberg’s headline had been “EU Leaders Weigh Sanctions Against Russia Over Ukraine”, and that report opened, “European Union leaders meeting in Brussels will consider expanded sanctions against Russia over the Ukraine conflict, as the US urges the bloc to take a tougher stand against Moscow.” Was the July 17th event only coincidentally timed perfectly in order to achieve what Obama was determined to produce: the first Ukraine-based anti-Russia sanctions? The regime that Obama had installed in Ukraine in February 2014 needed not only his support, but also the support of the IMF (in order to obtain loans), and of the EU (which it was seeking to join). There was probably even more pressure placed upon the leaders in Ukraine than there was upon the leaders in the EU. But there was plenty upon them both. The EU was widely reported to be balking at increasing the sanctions against Russia. Obama needed the EU to approve quickly his increased sanctions, so as to keep the momentum going for his entire anti-Russian campaign, which had been the reason behind his February 2014 coup in Ukraine. Something dramatic now was needed, in order for Obama to win the EU’s full cooperation. After all, Obama had secretly started at least by 2011 his operation to take over Ukraine. This operation was, for him, one of the central objectives of his entire two-term Presidency. Ukraine — and Ukraine alone — now had within its power the capacity to deliver to him the EU’s participation. Ukraine delivered it, precisely when it was the most urgently needed. This was essential in order for Ukraine to be able to enter the EU. And entering the EU would be essential in order for Ukraine to be able to enter NATO — the next key step in the Bilderbergers’ plan.

Continuing the sanctions is easier than originally imposing them was. On 22 December 2018, UAwire headlined “EU extends economic sanctions against Russia”, and reported that on December 14th, the EU’s sanctions against Russia, which are based upon alleged Russian aggressions in or against Ukraine, are being extended: UAwire noted “These measures were initially introduced on July 31, 2014 for one year in response to Russia’s actions to destabilize the situation in Ukraine, and then strengthened in September 2014.” The EU supports, and participates in, the US regime’s lies and sanctions against Russia. These crimes and lies started as Obama’s, but continued under his successor Trump, and have been also the EU’s crimes throughout, by the EU’s joining, instead of condemning, not only those sanctions but also the lies upon which those sanctions are based. The EU thus indirectly shares the US Government’s guilt in the mass-murders that occurred on 17 July 2014.

Perhaps the survivors’ families and Malaysia Airlines (which is owned by the Malaysian Government), and their Governments, will file both civil and criminal charges now initially against Ukraine and its President Petro Poroshenko, and ultimately against Victoria Nuland, Barack Obama, and the United States, but also against the Dutch Government, for its collusion with the United States Government in its fraudulent ‘investigation’ that had pre-established blame against Russia. (However, the secret agreement that Malaysia signed to join the JIT might prohibit Malaysia from joining such suits.) Netherlands pre-established Russian blame especially by means of its 8 August 2014 secret four-party agreement (joined later by Malaysia’s Government) to allow Ukraine, an actual suspect in this case, to hold veto power over the assignment of blame in this entire matter. However, not only the survivors of the 298 victims should be suing, but all of the victims should be represented in this case. There were also many violations of international laws. Obama’s coup against Ukraine was one such. The MH17 shoot-down resulted from that coup, couldn’t have occurred without it, and was an extension from it. That coup is thus an important part of the MH17 case.

On 20 September 2017, the now 5 countries in the JIT signed a joint “Memorandum of Understanding” saying “Arrangements for signatories and other grieving nations to make financial contributions to the national proceedings in the Netherlands will be laid down in a financial memorandum of understanding,” and that “This Memorandum will remain in effect for five years and will be automatically extended for successive five-year periods.” So, they intend to continue their ‘investigation’ into MH17 until they can present to the world evidence that Russia did it. Perhaps before that happens, however, all of the victims and their children will already have passed away and this fraud and farce will finally end, as secretly as it began, and only few people will even care, anymore, about it.

Or will victims and their families, instead, initiate whatever legal proceedings they can, right now, against all members of the JIT, for their cover-up, and against the ringleaders, in the US, who demanded this mass-murder to be done, and against the perpetrators in Ukraine, who actually ordered and did it?

Maybe they’ll even be able to get Barack Obama to return to the Nobel committee their 2009 Peace Prize.

The US regime masterminded this mass-murder in order to win the EU’s support for sanctions against Russia, and the EU knowingly complied, and continues to comply, with the American regime’s ongoing aggressions and lies against Russia. The 298 MH17 murder-victims are thus not only the US regime’s victims, but vicariously victims also of the EU — and not, at all, of Russia. Russia was instead the real intended target of the possible Ukrainian Buk missile, and of the Ukrainian fighter-jets, that brought down the MH17. The MH17 victims were merely “collateral damages” in the US regime’s secret decades-long and ongoing anti-Russia war. This is how today’s America competes in the world, by playing very dirty, and getting away with it, helped by its allies, which endorse, and join in, the US regime’s atrocities.

Now, which major news-media in The West will report these solidly documented facts? Isn’t it time, finally, that they should start doing that? Or, do they have no honor, at all?

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  • Hasbara Hunter

    From the beginning for me it wasn’t relevant who took down the MH-17…Russians or UkroNazis….First of all I always wondered why MH-17 was DIRECTED OVER A WARZONE IN THE FIRST PLACE……The Retards who are responsible for that are also to blame for the shooting down of that plane…..Which idiot sends Commercial Airliners over Warzones or was it all Pre-Planned?

    • You can call me Al

      Even though I live here, you know more than me + speak the lingo, start looking into why those two cabinet ministers (politicians fucks) resigned around the time, exactly at the same time.

      • Hasbara Hunter

        My Dutch Government is One of the Worst Cockroaches of’m all…Operating in the Dark from behind the Curtain…Illuminated Traitors….

        • You can call me Al

          I cannot wait for out session (beer and wine)…..we have a lot to talk about.

  • Terry Lawrence

    Very comprehensive report, Eric. I might add a small note: a few days after the shoot down the Canadian CBC television news interviewed a Canadian military observer who was on the crash site on behalf of an international organization (maybe the OSCE?) observing the fighting and examined the wreckage. He flatly stated, based on his personal examination of the wreckage, that the aircraft had been hit hard by a heavy caliber machine gun, probably 30mm. The interview was played only once and pulled from the subsequent newscast. This was early in the investigation before the official version about a BUK had been established. I subsequently searched for the interview on the CBC news website to record it, but it was gone, never to be seen again.

    As to why the authorities in Donetsk handed over the Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder (which are orange, not black) to representatives of Malaysian Airlines instead of Russia, it would seem clear they expected the Malaysian Airlines investigators to conduct their own investigation and not to turn the FDR and CVR over to the Dutch, who subsequently gave them to the British, never to be seen again. If they handed them to Russia it would simply provide a pretext for the US and its cronies to claim that “Russia had tempered with the evidence” and were covering up their crime. Exactly what the British are doing for Kiev and the US by refusing to release the results of their investigation of the Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder.

    • AM Hants

      MH17: Pockmarks look like from very, very heavy machine gun fire, says first OSCE monitor on-scene…

      ‘… Parry also cited a July 29 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation interview with Michael Bociurkiw, one of the first Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) investigators to arrive at the scene of the disaster, near Donetsk.

      Bociurkiw is a Ukrainian-Canadian monitor with OSCE who, along with another colleague, were the first international monitors to reach the wreckage after flight MH17 was brought down over eastern Ukraine.

      In the CBC interview, the reporter in the video preceded it with: “The wreckage was still smouldering when a small team from the OSCE got there. No other officials arrived for days”.

      “There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.

      Parry had said that Bociurkiw’s testimony is “as close to virgin, untouched evidence and testimony as we’ll ever get. Unlike a black-box interpretation-analysis long afterward by the Russian, British or Ukrainian governments, each of which has a horse in this race, this testimony from Bociurkiw is raw, independent and comes from one of the two earliest witnesses to the physical evidence.

      “That’s powerfully authoritative testimony. Bociurkiw arrived there fast because he negotiated with the locals for the rest of the OSCE team, who were organising to come later,” Parry had said.

      Retired Lufthansa pilot Peter Haisenko had also weighed in on the new shootdown theory with Parry and pointed to the entry and exit holes centred around the cockpit.

      “You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30mm caliber projectile.

      “The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes, show shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent — outwardly.”

      He deduced that in order to have some of those holes fraying inwardly, and the others fraying outwardly, there had to have been a second fighter firing into the cockpit from the airliner’s starboard side. This is critical, as no surface-fired missile (or shrapnel) hitting the airliner could possibly punch holes into the cockpit from both sides of the plane.

      “It had to have been a hail of bullets from both sides that brought the plane down. This is Haisenko’s main discovery. You can’t have projectiles going in both directions — into the left-hand-side fuselage panel from both its left and right sides — unless they are coming at the panel from different directions.

      “Nobody before Haisenko had noticed that the projectiles had ripped through that panel from both its left side and its right side. This is what rules out any ground-fired missile,” Parry had said…’

      https://www.nst.com.my/news/2015/09/mh17-pockmarks-look-very-very-heavy-machine-gun-fire-says-first-osce-monitor-scene

    • You can call me Al

      Bingo.

    • Eric Zuesse

      Thanks for pointing that out. I had previously written about that. However, It’s not in my summary here of my previous MH17 articles; and, now that you recall to my attention the statement by that OSCE official, Michael Bociurkiw, perhaps I should have.

      • Terry Lawrence

        My own opinion is that MH-17 was initially shot by a Ukrainian SU-25 using an Israeli Python air-to-air missile which specifically targets the cockpit of large aircraft, and then finished off by the SU-25’s 30mm cannon. Reasons, based on “known knowns” as Donald Rumsfeld once said:

        In the early 2000’s several Ukrainian SU-25’s were fitted to carry Israeli Python air-to-air missiles, which have a warhead of around 30kg. A BUK warhead is about 75kg. The Dutch commission claimed the warhead size to be around 30kg. The Python missile has software which specifically targets the cockpit of large aircraft, which is exactly where MH-17 was hit.

        The damage to the cockpit area shows both entry and exit holes on the same side of the same pieces of fuselage, something that cannot result from a single missile warhead exploding on only one side of the aircraft. The projectiles had to come from both sides, meaning there had to be two missiles and/or another source of projectiles such as a cannon or machine gun. That rules out a single BUK missile.

        A BUK missile has a solid fuel rocket motor that leaves a long straight white SMOKE – not vapour as a liquid fuel rocket motor – trail that remains clearly visible for around 15 minutes before dispersing. It was a clear day with scattered clouds and little wind to disperse the smoke trail, yet not a single witness I am aware of claims to have seen such an obvious vapour trail that day, much less one pointing up to the location where the airliner was hit and exploded.

        Several independent local eyewitnesses interviewed immediately after the shoot down claimed to have seen a small aircraft following MH-17 just before the explosion, and watched the small aircraft follow MH-17 down for some distance before flying off to the west. None of them claimed to have seen a missile vapour trail.

        Russian radar tracking allegedly showed a second small aircraft following MH-17 immediately before it was shot down. They identified this aircraft as an SU-25, but did not give details as to how they knew what type of aircraft it was. Military aircraft on a mission normally have their identification transponders turned off.

        For Ukraine using a Mig-29 or SU-27 dedicated air superiority fighter would have been an obvious give-away. Too much chance of somebody seeing it take off or land, or having Russian military radar watching it wondering what it was doing over Donetsk when the DPR had no military aircraft. But using an SU-25 would be low profile since the Ukrainian Air Force was attacking the LPR and DPR with SU-25s every day at that point of the war. The SU-25 pilot need only be supplied with a small portable oxygen tank and mask that would last about 15 minutes to do the job. The plane can climb well over 10,000 metres as long as the pilot has an oxygen supply.

        The test done by the Russian manufacturer of the BUK missile systems on the very similar cockpit of a decommissioned IL-86 airliner which exploded a BUK warhead exactly where the Dutch commission claimed it was, based on the shrapnel pattern, showed quite a different shrapnel pattern and more extensive damage as you would expect from the much larger BUK warhead. The Dutch commission refused to attend or send an observer to the BUK warhead demonstration test.

        Anyone looking at the photos of the wreckage in the first few days before anything had been moved could clearly see that there were many small irregular shaped inward bent holes around the port side cockpit skin from shrapnel, presumably from a missile warhead exploding just off the port side of the cockpit, and a smaller number of larger round holes of about 30mm diameter mostly flared outward apparently originating from a machine gun located to the starboard side of the MH-17’s cockpit. This corresponds to the cannon shell holes in the port wing which came from ahead of the plane, likely fired as by the trailing SU-25 as MH-17 turned to starboard after the initial missile hit, exposing it’s starboard cockpit side to a following aircraft.

        In short, a SU-25 was chosen for the job because it would blend in with the other attacking SU-25s over Donetsk, and because it would be difficult to explain why the Ukrainian Air Force had a Mig-29 or SU-27 in the vicinity of MH-17 on that day. An air-to-air missile was used for the initial hit on the cockpit, and the SU-25 finished MH-17 off with it’s cannon as the airliner made a starboard turn back toward Kiev, whether under the control of a still living pilot or or not.

        There were many reasons for the shoot down. Israel needed a big story to cover its massive assault on Gaza which started only a few hours later and was virtually unreported as all the media coverage was about MH-17.

        The CIA and USA wanted payback against Malaysia for hosting the War Crimes Tribunal that indicted the Bush regime and Israel for starting wars of aggression in Iraq and Gaza.

        Poroshenko needed to get the LPR and DPR self-defence militias certified as “Terrorists” because that would automatically kick in laws in most Western countries making it illegal for anyone to support or aid them in any way.

        The US State Department, CIA, and their “allies” in the Western governments needed a pretext to start a new cold war with Russia that would enable them to start shovelling buckets of money into their military industrial complexes without any questions or opposition in their various parliaments.

        In short, it was a multipurpose False Flag that fitted many agendas.

        • Trauma2000

          Fantastic Post. Thank you for sharing.
          Have you seen this: https://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Ukrainian-attack-on-MH17-sat-photo.jpg

          This image is apparently a GoogleEarth cach scrape and ‘slipped through’ on the day or shortly after before the Google ‘data’ was ‘sanitised’.

          • Terry Lawrence

            Yes, the photo purports to show a SU-27 firing a missile toward a Boeing airliner over Eastern Ukraine. I suspect it was actually fabricated by a Western intelligence agency as a “red herring” to misdirect attention away from the SU-25, the idea being it could be determined whether any SU-27s were in the air in Eastern Ukraine that day, but not whether one of the SU-25s operating there had attacked MH-17. Either way, whether it is a real photo or a deliberate false lead planted by a Western intelligence agency, to confirms the likelihood that the shoot down was actually carried out by an air-to-air missile and not by a BUK missile. There was apparently an American spy satellite overhead at the time, but like the American Aegis radar info from a warship they had in the Black Sea at the time, whatever it captured has never been released or provided to the Dutch investigation farce team.

          • Govert

            Apart from several other impossibilities that prove this is a fake “photo”, what time is printed at the bottom of this “photo”? What time format is used in the world of satellites and space? That’s an easy one ay…Thank you.

        • Hasbara Hunter

          Thanks….just read your post….Good one, copied & saved it….:)

      • Govert

        When you write about Bociurkiw’s comment in your “summary article”, then also tell that he said “almost looks like”. Also tell that he was there as a monitor, not as a forensic investigator and that he has not done any forensic investigation, just observed pieces of the wreckage from a distance and in limited time. You may also want to tell what he said earlier in the interview about “men in uniform hacking into it [the cockpit] with a power saw”. Besides you may want to elaborate on the weapons that the fighter jets in the area may be equipped with and tell that “machine guns” are not among them. You may also want to tell that the damage can not be explained as having been caused by bullets from a cannon (that fighter jets may be equipped with) as that does not explain the numerous small, irregular holes.

    • Eric Zuesse asked SF to forward to you the following comment: “Terry, please email me, so that we may communicate directly. Today I updated at washingtonsblog my big article on MH17 by adding at the end two updates, both responsing to your comments on this article at South Front.
      You can see those updates at the end of this:
      https://washingtonsblog.com/2018/12/mh17-turnabout-ukraines-guilt-now-proven.html
      Best,
      Eric Zuesse”

      • Terry Lawrence

        Yes, I’d like to chat with you on this and related issues, Eric, but I don’t have an email address for you. However, as I’m a donor, Southfront has an email address for me that perhaps the moderator could pass along to you, which I hereby authorize and request them to do. Don’t want to put one of my email addresses in a comment as that would likely result in a lot of spam.

        • You can contact SF on this issue via info@southfront.org and you will get the email.
          Sincerely yours,
          SF Team

          • Terry Lawrence

            Thank you. Done.

  • Drogba

    The Truth is so dangerous to zionism, that is has to be surrounded by a massive wall of LIES.

    • Hasbara Hunter

      THEIR LIES BECAME EASY TO RECOGNIZE… THE TRUTH IS VERY SIMPLE & WILL DEEPLY ANGER THE ENTIRE WORLD SOON….THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING…..

  • Bob Starsky

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2478505a92a8d68facd9757b692477cea7ee3438ed91c44c70412cfa18adb84e.jpg

    The damage shows it wasnt 30mm cannon but it match BUK’s damage. This is the only and the best proof it wasnt a jet who downed it.

    What ukraine could do was to put the airliner there and bait with their military planes.

    • Hasbara Hunter

      It’s all details….the Common Thread: That Plane shouldn’t have been there in the First place….the Waiting was for something to happen…the Direction & Height of MH-17 were altered too….Steering them right where they needed that Plane?

      • You can call me Al

        What happened to the air controller who suddenly disappeared ?.

        • Hasbara Hunter

          Killed Himself? Because Witnesses always happen to Commit Suicide or get caught up in some accident….

        • AM Hants

          Carlos, the Spaniard.

          Kolomoisky, the oligarch in control of aviation, including air traffic control, now why did he apologise?

          Weren’t they expecting President Putin to be taking the same route, around that time, following the very successful BRICS summit? Modi was just behind the MH17, when it went down.

          ………………

          Kolomoysky: Sorry about the MH17 – but it is a trifle – ENG SUBS… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfKZUttEwE

          ………………

          Malaysia Airlines MH17: Was Putin’s Flight the Original Target of Missile Attack?… Narendra Modi’s flight

          Meanwhile, it has also emerged that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi would have flown over the same airspace nearly an hour after the Malaysia Airlines jet.

          “There was no danger to the PM’s plane, but obviously the area that they would have flown over would have been the same. The pilot would have to decide whether to divert over Russia or the Black sea instead,” an aviation official told the Indian daily The Hindu on condition of anonymity…’

          https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/malaysia-airlines-mh17-was-putins-flight-original-target-missile-attack-1457170

          • You can call me Al

            Bingo – spot on.

          • AM Hants
          • You can call me Al

            hahaha lol, you cheeky effer.

          • AM Hants

            Did you mean cheeky heifer or effer

            🐂 COWS MOOING LOUDLY 🐂 HERE’S WHAT THE MOOS MEAN 🐂… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AqsweyRV4

            LOL, but, have no idea what they are saying.

          • You can call me Al

            Well your video fits the “wife part”, but effer is the polite way of saying….

            Eff….er
            F…..er

            where the “uck” is pronounced, but cannot be seen !.

            YOU WOMEN…..you cannot live with them and you cannot kill them.

          • AM Hants

            LOL, would not have minded being called a ‘cheeky heifer’.

            Men, been surrounded by them, all my life, father, brothers, husbands, sons, grandsons – still have no comprehension how they function. Despite understanding, both genders have strengths, plus, weaknesses, which support each other. The old ‘Y’ chromosome has so much to answer for. The ‘X’ chromosome, is so easy to understand, you just need to listen, to what ‘X’ says, together with understanding and doing as you are told.

            Simple you see, haha.

          • You can call me Al

            PS I love cows, so I am saving the video.

            That cow is shouting for a good dobbing.

          • AM Hants

            LOL, no wonder I could not understand the chat.

      • Terry Lawrence

        “Bullets or Shrapnel….does it matter?” Yes, because shrapnel comes from a missile warhead, while bullets can only be fired from an aircraft. 30mm bullet holes could only have come from a military aircraft cannon, and only the Ukrainian Air Force had military aircraft flying over the DPR in Eastern Ukraine that day. Those SU-25 ground attack aircraft have a 30mm cannon and some are equipped with Israeli Python air-to-air missiles. The cockpit photos you post above show punctures from both shrapnel and 30mm cannon fire (the larger round holes). Meaning another aircraft was involved.

        • Hasbara Hunter

          The SU-25 would make it another Western 911-Inside-Job-False-Flag….But the MH-17 was Directed over a Warzone in the first place: If the Donbassers & Russians took down the MH-17 by accident (a Ukrainian SU-25 in the area sounds like a Good Reason to Fire a BUk-Missile….The MH-27 was guided & Directed over the specific Area & had to lower Altitude….It weren’t the Donbassers nor the Russians who were responsible for that….they are trying to get Lying Bastard Mark Rutte to replace Juncker at the Moment….Mark Rutte belongs in Jail just like the rest of the European Government….

          • Terry Lawrence

            You are spot on with a key element. The shoot down only occurred over the DPR because the Kiev Air Traffic Control redirected MH-17 from its normal route over the Sea of Azov and ordered them to overfly an active war zone. No valid reason has ever been provided by Kiev for ordering this unusual change in flight plan, and the cockpit voice recorder tape which would reveal what the MH-17 pilots said about it between themselves, if anything, has never been made public. The British and Dutch who have control of the cockpit voice recorder claim there is nothing of interest on it. In that case, why not release the tape?

          • Hasbara Hunter

            In Holland tapes with incriminating evidence often get Lost….or Accidentally Erased…..Happened Many Times before…

    • Neil

      No, if you read all the linked articles you will see that the photo (zoom right in!) – https://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf – shows damage caused by bullets, peeling the outer layer outwards and the inner layer inwards. Blunt shrapnel would only distort the metal in the direction of travel. There are clear 30mm circular holes, especially right where the pilot was.

      • AM Hants

        Not forgetting they would not release the post mortem on the pilot. Neither was their a forensic report on the shrapnel fragments on the exit and entry holes, which would clarify whether the plane was taken down by ground to air missile, air to air, or mixture of both.

        John Helmer – MH17 CORONER MICHAEL BARNES, AUSTRALIAN LAWYERS IN HEAD-ON CRASH WITH THE RULES OF EVIDENCE… http://johnhelmer.net/mh17-coroner-michael-barnes-australian-lawyers-in-head-on-crash-with-the-rules-of-evidence/

        • Neil

          They can’t possibly claim their investigation was impartial: led by the Dutch, with Ukraine allowed to block any findings they don’t like; not accepting any evidence from Russia; withholding US and Ukraine radar data; withholding black box data; Ukraine claiming the had no BUKs, no planes, no radar.

          • AM Hants
          • Neil

            The sarcastically-named Integrity Initiative again.
            But how are these organisations connected to Ukraine? I expect they are.

          • AM Hants

            Personally me, as I go on a ramble, Ukraine is just one link of the jigsaw, which keeps getting played from century to century, by the same characters, different faces.

            Does it go back to the ‘Lost Tribes’ and the Nomadic Turkic Tribes who adopted Christianity, Islam Judea and learnt Hebrew, believing Ukraine belongs to them?

            ……………………….

            Now I will go on a ramble, going back to 1760, but, it does not start there.

            1760 – George III, to avoid bankruptcy, handed over the Crown Estate to the Government, administered by the bankers, in return for an allowance, known as the Civil List. It is now the Sovereign Grant, where the Sovereign of the day gets 15% to administer the Royal Household/Estate, with the Government of the day receiving 85%, administered by the private bankers.

            ……………

            Crimean War, 1853-1856 – one section of the war – The new target for France and Britain became the Russian naval base at Sevastopol – they wanted to destroy Russian naval power in the Black Sea.

            ……………..

            1863, Czardorn and democracy had a lot more in common than usual. Russia was at the brink of war with the old “Crimean Coalition” (Britain, France, and Austria) over the question of the Polish Rebellion.

            Alexander’s reasons for wanting to send the Russian fleet off to America are related to a complicated European situation that began long before the Civil War. The basis ‘ for Alexander’s action was a Polish insurrection in 1863. Poland had been under Russian domination for a long time. The country was partitioned out of existence in the 18th century. It had been given some recognition by Napoleon with the creation of the Grand Duchy of Warsaw. The Poles were not satisfied. They were tired of being ruled by other nations. This desire for independence brought them to open revolt in January 1863.

            1863 Russia sends fleet to US, anchored off the coast, to help Lincoln, from the planned French/British invasion. The bankers never forgave Russia for her help.

            ( http://people.loyno.edu/~history/journal/1983-4/delehaye.htm )

            ……………..

            1867 – Russia sells Alaska to United States

            ……………..

            1881 – Alexander II of Russia, assassinated, allegedly owing to his support to Lincoln during the Civil War.

            ……………….

            1884 – Fabian Society/Socialist society founded. I wonder how the Tavistock Institute fits into the old Fabian Society in the 21st Century?

            ‘…The Fabian Society is one such entity which written in 1887 is a mixture of fascism, Nazism, Marxism and communism. It is not hard to now imagine that all these ‘ideologies’ would have also been engineered by the same people.

            It should come as no surprise then to discover that the Fabian Society is accredited with creating Communist China, Fascism in Italy and Germany and Socialism globally as well.

            How far people have been fooled and also explains the role played by the Fabian Society in formulating policies for the decolonized British Empire.

            It would also mean that quite a number of British educated natives given the mantle of leading the newly independent nations would have also been members of the Fabian society.

            The communist takeover of Russia too is said to be the work of the British Fabian Society financed by the City of London banking families.

            A closer look at entities like the Bank Of International Settlements (BIS), International Monetary Fund (IMF), Club Of Rome, The Committee Of 300, the Central ‘Intelligence’ Agency (CIA), the Council On Foreign Relations, The Tri-Lateral Commission, The Bilderberg Groups, the ‘Federal’ Reserve System, the Internal Revenue Service(s), Goldman Sachs, Israel and the Israeli lobby, the Vatican, the City of London, Brussels, the United Nations, the Israeli Mossad, and Associated Press (AP) will reveal that they are all part of the Fabian Society which also controls the European Union.

            A noteworthy quote is that of Australian Senator Chris Schacht who said in 2001 “You probably were not aware that us Fabians have taken over the CIA, KGB, M15, ASIO (Australian Security Intelligence Organization), IMF, the World Bank and many other organizations…”
            3 Corporations Run The World
            http://humansarefree.com/2017/01/3-corporations-run-world-city-of-london.html

            ………………..

            JOHN MAYNARD KEYNES: … http://themillenniumreport.com/2018/09/john-maynard-keynes-how-the-wests-keynesian-economic-model-was-built-by-a-socialist-fabian-pedophile-who-supported-the-bolshevik-revolution/

            1913 – Federal Reserve Act was signed
            1914 – Reserve Banks Open for Business
            1914 – 1918 – Federal Reserve’s Role During WWI

            …………….

            1915 – Dardanelles Campaign – March 1915, during World War I (1914-18), British and French forces launched an ill-fated naval attack on Turkish forces in the Dardanelles in northwestern Turkey, hoping to take control of the strategically vital strait separating Europe from Asia.

            …………….

            1917 – Russian Revolution
            1917 – Abdication of Czar Nicholas II of Russia
            1917 – IRA formed
            1917 – United States Severs Diplomatic Relations With Germany
            1917 – Fall of Baghdad (1917)
            1917 – First Battle Of Gaza
            1917 – United States Declares War on Germany
            1917 – Congress Passes $7,000,000,000 Bond Bill to Carry on the War
            1917 – Second Battle Of Gaza
            1917 – King Constantine of Greece Abdicates Throne
            1917 – Greece Declares War on Austria-Hungary, Bulgaria, Germany and
            Turkey
            1917 – Russian Army Deserts and is Expelled from Galicia
            1917 – Bolsheviks Seize Control of the Russian Government
            1917 – US Congress Appropriates $640,000,000 for Manufacture of
            Airplanes
            1917 – Ten suffragists Are Arrested As They Picket The White House
            1917 – Balfour Declaration
            1917 – United States Declares War on Austria-Hungary

            ……………

            1918 – The Russian Imperial Romanov family (Tsar Nicholas II, his wife Tsarina Alexandra and their five children Olga, Tatiana, Maria, Anastasia, and Alexei) and all those who chose to accompany them into imprisonment—notably Eugene Botkin, Anna Demidova, Alexei Trupp and Ivan Kharitonov—were shot, bayoneted and clubbed to death[1] in Yekaterinburg on the night of 16–17 July 1918

            V. I. Lenin
            The Ukraine and the Defeat of the Ruling Parties of Russia… https://www.marxists.org/archive//lenin/works/1917/jun/30a.htm

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a22f5706995b448f222110da2826cef6d66de99759c1eaf36ff2c64c39ab60d6.jpg

            ………………

            I am just rambling, but, strange how events link together.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/154a336cf1d26ae9cf04d478b773452c2d0741a09d712fd10a6510dc7f9bb97a.png

          • Neil

            Good answer. Do continue!

          • AM Hants

            Cheers, sorry for the ramble, but, it does appear to form a pattern.

          • Hasbara Hunter

            Always appreciated you come up with good stuff…..the more the better….

          • AM Hants

            Thank you. Will work on the next 100 years, although the first 50 years never interested me. So should keep me amused.

          • FlorianGeyer

            ” I am just rambling”
            Your rambles are always an education AM :)

          • AM Hants

            Thank you Florian.

          • FlorianGeyer

            The very fact that the Black Box data etc was not made public WITH impartial forensic evidence stinks Neil.

        • FlorianGeyer

          I would suggest it was a mixture of a Buk and aircraft cannon shells.
          We know that the airliner was turning to return back to Kiev after the Buk attack and if that would confuse the Uki pilots as to whether the Buk had actually hit the airliner seriously or even not at all.

          Hence the attack with 30 mm cannons.

      • Bob Starsky

        dont you see shitload of other damage of smaller pieces hitting the plane? with 30 mm cannon there would be ONLY 30 mm holes. the damage is a damage of a blast.

        • Neil

          Yes, that’s true.

      • Bob Starsky

        https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2749002/MH17-broke-air-Ukraine-struck-multiple-high-energy-objects-investigators-report-crash-finds.html here more detail photos showing holes of ALL sizes. You must be trolling with claim it was downed only by 30mm bullets

        • Neil

          Unless it was hit with both, it must have been a missile.

          It was still probably the Ukrainians that did it as a false flag, in league with US, in my opinion, as per Operation Northwoods.
          It’s possible the rebels did it by mistake as Ukraine used MH17 as a human shield as we recently saw Israel do in Syria with Russia’s plane.
          Why would Russia shoot it down on purpose, as we’re told? No chance.

        • Blaubeere

          Therefore, there is the explanation that first the jet shot with a 30-mm cannon, and a BUK did “the rest”.

    • bob_starsky yes

    • FlorianGeyer

      The Ukraine could also ‘bait it with their planes’ and shoot the airliner down with a Ukrainian operated, Russian made BUK missile.

      Its the Zionist method of war.

      • Bob Starsky

        i didnt say it was rebelian BUK but there are videos and pictures of a BUK coming in with rockets and coming out without rocket which is shady af….
        I only dont know why rebels would shoot at a plane above them as there was point of ukrainian cargo planes flying above rebels/front line….

  • AM Hants

    Brilliant, I was just going to post the link to the article. Not forgetting how the following links into the propaganda of it all.

    TAVISTOCK: The Programming Hub of Globalist Command and Control

    THE BRITISH TAVISTOCK INSTITUTE CONTROLS MSM SOCIAL MEDIA PROPAGANDA, MUELLER, SERCO AND THE SENIOR EXECUTIVE SERVICE (SES)
    The NSA and C.I.A. have used long-proven Tavistock social psychiatry mind control since WWII to subvert and steer American public opinion

    British peers Sir Nick Clegg and Baron Richard Allan now controlFacebook policy worldwide

    It’s up to the rest of us to stop this flight into fascist social slavery, or worse, eugenics elimination… http://themillenniumreport.com/2018/12/tavistock-the-programming-hub-of-globalist-command-and-control/

    ……………..

    Britain’s “Institute for Statecraft” Finally Exposed, Top Secret ‘Integrity Initiative’ Blown Wide Open… http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=112051

    ………………

    A Brief History of the “Kremlin Trolls”… https://thesaker.is/a-brief-history-of-the-kremlin-trolls/

    …………………

  • TomWonacott

    The US regime masterminded this mass-murder in order to win the EU’s support for sanctions against Russia, and the EU knowingly complied, and continues to comply, with the American regime’s ongoing aggressions and lies against Russia. The 298 MH17 murder-victims are thus not only the US regime’s victims, but vicariously victims also of the EU — and not, at all, of Russia. Russia was instead the real intended target of the possible Ukrainian Buk missile, and of the Ukrainian fighter-jets, that brought down the MH17. The MH17 victims were merely “collateral damages” in the US regime’s secret decades-long and ongoing anti-Russia war. This is how today’s America competes in the world, by playing very dirty, and getting away with it, helped by its allies, which endorse, and join in, the US regime’s atrocities.

    This is the grand conspiracy theory. The “deep state” must be behind the downing of MH17 to blame the Russians to ensure the EU adopts sanctions. The Europeans are in on this conspiracy theory as well because the Dutch are “secretly” hiding the real truth (and they refuse to release it). Bellingcat is a puppet of the US government – and the social media photographs showing the Russian Buk missile launcher in Eastern Ukraine have been clearly altered. As Robert Parry at Consortium said, it was a bunch of drunk Ukrainians operating a Buk missile that shot the plane down. The Russians are obviously innocent bystanders victims to this nefarious joint venture by the EU and the US. Thankfully Eric is here to inform us. He is one of the few able to discern the truth.

    Come to think of it, I’m beginning to wonder if Russia actually annexed Crimea. Possibly this was invented by the US to create an enemy – and who better than the Russians? The MSM is clearly in on this conspiracy as is the EU. As Eric will inform us in his next installment, it was the US that annexed Crimea breaking the Budapest memorandum. There is actually no bridge connecting Russia to Crimea. Those are just pictures released by the CIA.

    Sorry Eric, your long article is absurd!

    • Hasbara Hunter

      The Dutch are part of the Cabal for many Centuries…it wasn’t without a reason Bilderberg started over here….all the Western Elitist Rats are cooperating together to Stay in Control of us the Scum….yeah all their Lies are very Simple & Easy to Understand….which is Great because sooner or Later the Sheeples will be able to Comprehend & Understand the Hidden Evil…..and they don’t have to read very much….

    • Ricky Miller

      You should wonder, because the answer is no. Russia did not annex anything in Crimea. The Crimean Assembly broke from Ukraine because Crimea’s ethnic Russian majority had just been disenfranchised in a coup and their actual physical safety was under some threat by Ukraino-Nazi nationalists. The Assembly, elected in a Ukrainian election I remind you, asked Russia for security assistance, broke from Ukraine and authorized and scheduled the referendum where a large majority chose reunification with Russia. That’s the truth and nothing in there comes close to “annexation.”

      • TomWonacott

        There was no threat to ethnic Russians in Crimea. That is classic disinformation. It’s “annexation” because Crimea belongs to Ukraine as recognized by Russia under the Budapest Memorandum (which Russia broke). Russia illegally annexed Crimea to secure their base; to controll access to the Azov Sea; for oil and gas exploration off of the coast of Crimea and to punish the new government of Ukraine. The referendum and annexation are illegal under international law.

        The Russians forced the adoption of a resolution at gunpoint i.e., Russia forced the deputies of the Supreme Soviet of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea to adopt a resolution (Nemtsov, “Putin War”):

        As for how “voluntary” the return [of Crimea] was, Igor Girkin, the former Defense Minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, recounted on January 22, 2015, on the program “Polit-Ring,” broadcast by the online channel Neyromir-TV.

        By his own account, Girkin arrived in Crimea on February 21, 2014. “I did not see any support from organizers of state power in Simferopol, where I was located. The militia gathered the deputies [of the Supreme Soviet of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea], I don’t know how else to say it. It was to force them into the building, so they would adopt it (a decision on conducting the referendum on the entrance of Crimea to the Russian Federation).” We 23 note that the events described by Girkin (Strelkov) took place on February 27, 2014, immediately after a number of strategic objectives had been taken over by Russian Special Forces on the night of February 26- 27, including the parliament building, where, at gunpoint, with no media present and without the video broadcast of sessions as specified by law, the deputies supposedly voted to hold a referendum.

        • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

          “There was no threat to ethnic Russians in Crimea.”
          Really? So what happened to the 50+ Russian-speaking Ukrainians murdered in Odessa on 2 May 2014? Did they fire-bomb themselves?
          You are a very good apologist for the violent coup that removed ELECTED President Yanukovych on 22 February 2014.
          It is never a good idea to organise such violent coups. These illegal actions usually result in constitutional chaos and the invalidation of previous treaties and memorandums.
          How would you feel about a Maidan in Paris, London or even Washington, which could happen if the Dems are stupid enough to impeach Trump this year and unleash the anger of the NRA.
          Gee, that would be Karma indeed!

          • TomWonacott

            Really? So what happened to the 50+ Russian-speaking Ukrainians murdered in Odessa on 2 May 2014? Did they fire-bomb themselves?

            That is more RT propaganda. According to an investigation by the UN one month after the clashes in Odesa:

            “The cause of the fire remains unclear at this stage”.

            So in one month, the UN investigation could not determine the cause of the fire. The 2 May Group, an organisation of 13 local experts investigating the tragedy on a volunteer basis based on social media pictures and eye witness accounts is summarized by the Guardian in this article published nearly one year after the tragedy (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/30/there-was-heroism-and-cruelty-on-both-sides-the-truth-behind-one-of-ukraines-deadliest-days?CMP=share_btn_tw):

            1. The Pro-Russian protesters initiated the violence against the Maidan protesters (Guardian):

            street battles first broke out several hours before the Trade Union building fire. They were sparked when a group of masked pro-Russia activists allegedly led by Sergei Dolzhenkov, a former police officer known as “Captain Kakao”, attacked a pro-Ukraine march mostly made up of football fans. The pro-Russia men were armed with clubs, fireworks, homemade grenades and guns

            2. When the pro_Maidan protesters confronted the pro-Russian protesters at the Trade Union building, a fight ensued in which molotov cocktaials and gunfire erupted between BOTH camps:

            Eventually pro-Russians were pushed back, and they fled the city centre, many streaming towards the Kulikovo Pole square outside the Trade Union building where a pro-Russia tent camp had been in place for several months.

            In a running confrontation, both sides threw molotov cocktails, one of which set alight a makeshift barricade in the foyer. Piles of wooden pallets, a generator and other equipment from a dismantled pro-Russia tent camp quickly began to burn. Smoke and flames sped up the main stairwell, drawn by smashed windows on higher floors

            In a conclusion by the 2 May Group:

            6 people were killed and a further 12 injured by gunshot wounds during the disturbances in the centre. 42 died as a result of the fire which broke out in the Trade Union building on Kulikovo Pole. The fire was caused by a Molotov cocktail, however these were being hurled by activists on both sides AND SPECIALIST AGREE THAT THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING WHETHER THE FATAL INCENDIARY DEVICE WAS THROWN FROM OUTSIDE THE BUILDING, OR FROM INSIDE [my emphasis]

            The 2 May Group also noted:

            There is, however, permanent activity on the information war front with Russia and pro-Russian organizations actively pushing a narrative about a ‘massacre’ with the Trade Union building claimed to have been set alight on purpose by ‘Ukrainian radicals’. These are lies that have been used actively to recruit young men to fight in Donbas, and are regularly touted around Europe via a suspiciously well-funded ‘victim’ and highly misleading exhibition

          • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

            “The 2 May Group, an organisation of 13 local experts investigating.”
            Who are these people? How many are agents of NATO?
            Who are you? You’re just a disgusting apologist for murder of people to further your anti-Russian RACIST geopolitical ends.
            Murder is murder is murder.
            This is the kind of propaganda used to justify the “ATO” against the DONBASS people by the Kiev Neo-Nazi stooges, using tanks, artillery and grad missiles that has resulted in the deaths of more than 11,000 people.
            Did you get your 30 pieces of silver from the US/EU/NATO gangsters, Tom???

          • TomWonacott

            The 2 May group are investigative journalists that investigated the Odesa massacre. You (and RT) are the one revising the event to suit your own political agenda like perpetually referring to the Kiev “neo-Nazis” – just exactly like RT, Channel One etc.. Where is your source on Odesa??

          • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

            Odessa, dear. I see you can’t spell in the ENGLISH language. Is your language Ukrainian? Can you speak any English? Did you go to a NED funded school? I went to a grammar school in London.
            I know that your propagandist ilk like to spread the story that the Odessa victims shot, burned and killed themselves. And you have the backing of the government and billionaire controlled media in the NATO countries.
            I have been to Odessa when Ukraine was a free country so I have followed that massacre with special interest by following reports from multiple sources.
            Keep farting dear, but murder is murder is murder.
            Now, why does Banderised Ukraine have censorship and what do you think would happen if I was to go to that failed state and campaign for a federal Ukraine like the US, Canada, Germany, Australia, Switzerland and my own birth country of India?
            How long will it be before I get locked up and deported by the CIA controlled SBU?

          • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

            “The 2 May group are investigative journalists that investigated the ODESSA massacre.”
            Who are these “journalists”? Who funds their activities? How many people have been convicted of the Odessa murders?

        • Ricky Miller

          Baloney. I guess it would be a relief for the eight Crimeans murdered after being pulled of their bus returning to Crimea from a pro government rally in Kiev. People like you always ignore the coup. A legally elected government, supported by the East where most ethnic Russians live in Ukraine was overthrown, period paragraph full stop. It was illegal and disenfranchised millions of people who had cast their votes for a majority in the overthrown government, a coup coached and instigated from outside. The elected assembly in Crimea set aside the forced union with Ukraine and you and others like you can’t change that truth no matter how many neocon project lies you shout.

          There is actually a documentary about this. The mob of Maidan nuts outside the Crimean Assembly building and trying to break in were trying to prevent the Assembly from even meeting. Russian forces helped secure the building the next day but did not enter the Assembly room where the vote took place. And then the fact is that people of all types go to Crimea and talk to people there and reports of what they learn is consistent: people overwhelmingly support the return to Russia and a large statistical majority report being better off. Peddle your lies elsewhere and get used to Crimea being part of Russia. They’re not going back. Need proof? Look no farther than the $3 billion bridge. Or the four regimental sets of S400’s. Enough said.

        • Ricky Miller

          Please see AM Hants post directly above yours. I argue with you types all day. She puts an end to the argument. Might take a bit of time but read. There’s a healthy dose of reality there. Any idea that native Crimeans, agitating for a long time to return to Russia, were out there mobbing the Assembly building in support of the coup or remaining with Ukraine is laughable and really unworthy of much serious discussion. And U.S. and British intelligence reports stated so beforehand. Read, if you will.

          • TomWonacott

            Russia invaded and took control of the Assembly building by force. Read “Putin War.” Those were the words of Igor Girkin – not mine. The referendum had nothing to do with self determination. This was all about the geopolitical interests of Russia – the military facility, the oil and gas off the coast of Crimea and control of the Azov Sea.

          • Ricky Miller

            I’m not reading any more Western propaganda. As an American I’m buried in it already. Again, you ignore both important facts; there was a coup and the social contract which bound Crimea to Ukraine under threat, was terminated. Respond to : coup, coup, coup. As in overthrow of lawfully elected government. Next, I notice you gloss over the fact that many visitors to Crimea of all stripes and points of view agree on the attitudes of most Crimeans they meet that a large majority of Crimeans approve of reunification with Russia. If another referendum is held, under International observation, I’ll bet you a year’s salary that better than two thirds of Crimeans vote to stay in the Russian Federation and on record turnout, no less.

            A funny thing about your last point. The military facility, oil and gas leases, a dominant Black Sea position all explain the reasoning for a Western backed coup in the first place. As with most Neocon and Imperial American mindsets you see in others what you are yourself. Russia just beat you at your own game and for primarily one reason: a large majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russians who were dragged into being part of Ukraine, against their will, on four separate occasions. When a quasi legal door was opened for a way out, both elected and common Crimeans, along with the powers that be in Russia, walked through that open door, together. People like you just don’t like the means and legal rationales used to accomplish it.

          • TomWonacott

            As with most Neocon and Imperial American mindsets you see in others what you are yourself. Russia just beat you at your own game and for primarily one reason: a large majority of Crimeans are ethnic Russians who were dragged into being part of Ukraine, against their will, on four separate occasions

            In 1991 (December), Crimeans voted for Ukranian independence by a majority 54%. Crimea voted to remain a part of Ukraine albeit autonomous. I agree that a majority of Crimeans would probably have voted to leave Ukraine in 2014; however, it doesn’t make the invasion by Russia and the holding of the referendum at the point of a gun legal. It doesn’t make the annexation legal. In fact, the Russians broke several agreements to illegally annex Crimea (including the Budapest memorandum). There is no justification for the illegal act. In legal terms, it doesn’t matter if the Russians beat the west at their own game. Illegal is still illegal.

            Thanks.

          • Ricky Miller

            No. Russia and other people as well should not have to live in a world where Western countries violate agreements, such as the UN Charter and others, call it legal, overthrow governments, call it legal, but at the same time insist that others operate under the very rules they violate. That’s laughable and a prescription for inevitable conflict. Crimea was part of Russia for centuries, end of argument. Crimeans attempted to leave Ukraine three times in the nineties. Thrice. By legal methods, with their own government. More of the Western fraud rules system: places like Kosovo and East Timor get self determination but you don’t because your ethnic Russian and we need to hold Russia down. In the end, it didn’t work. Crimea found her way home and the beauty of it is they used an illegal Western regime change operation as the legal cause. It doesn’t get more satisfying than that.

          • Ricky Miller

            Get it through that thick head. There was no Russian invasion. Black Sea Fleet forces already in Crimea by legal agreement provided security for the Republic of Crimea, at their request. That’s not invasion. And your arguments about Ukrainian independence votes mean little either because Crimea’s secession wasn’t on the ballot that day. Under that logic Vladimir Putin’s 70%+ of the vote in the 2018 Presidential election shows that Crimeans continue to support reunification.

          • TomWonacott

            Ricky

            You have been listening to far too much RT propaganda. Yes, there was an invasion of Crimea. Putin admits that he personally oversaw the invasion (in his own words, from “Putin. War.”).

            In order to blockade and disarm 20,000 people who are well armed, you need a certain kind of force, not just in quantity but in quality. Specialists were needed who knew how to do this. Therefore, I gave the orders and instructions to the Ministry of Defense, why hide it, under the guise of protection of our military facilities in Crimea, to deploy a special division of the Main Intelligence [Directorate] (the GRU) together with naval infantry forces and paratroopers

            Try reading “Putin War” by Boris Nemtsov. He was such a threat to the Russian government that he was murdered for his efforts. By the way, Russia also invaded Eastern Ukraine.

          • Ricky Miller

            Go away. There are many narratives in the world and RT is far less propaganda than the Corporate MSM across the West. Endless Wars, treaty violations and overthrowing governments are all the rationalized narrative in the West but RT and others, like SF, report on these events and often display the story from another point of view. That doesn’t make it propaganda and I believe more in that Russian centric narrative than I do the Pentagon, neocon, corporate storyline. Which is why I’m on SF, an alternative site that presents events from other viewpoints. Why are you here? To present lies as facts and to disrupt. And to dodge perfectly legitimate questions while spouting your neo-colonial “truths.” Questions like about the illegality of overthrowing legally elected governments as a matter of policy and habit. Questions about why some states are lectured about following the rules to the letter while others, the accusers, violate rules and treaties seemingly at will, often setting in motion the events which cause others to have to act, leading to more accusations of illegality. It’s a nauseating double standard.

            I don’t care about your propaganda citations. Take it to VOA or Newsweek. And take your Quisling Russian writer’s memory with you. I literally care not. Crimea is now part of Russia, that’s all the fact I need.

          • TomWonacott

            Why are you here? To present lies as facts and to disrupt.

            Just to present facts. That is usually enough in a debate.

            Thanks.

          • Ricky Miller

            You mean to ignore the facts you don’t like. Facts like the neocon and pro-Western plan for Ukrainian democracy: If Russian speakers and advocates for better ties and economic integration with Russia win elections we’ll overthrow your government, ha! We win. If we win elections, and clearly see first point, we will win, no matter how many times it takes, than we win too. See how it works, you win, you lose. And we win, you lose. But Crimea had better follow the rules and not try and seceed or anything. We do the law and rule-breaking around here. And anywhere else we want.

          • Ricky Miller

            Otherwise you’re here to sidestep this fact that no matter how many times is pointed out, you ignore: Coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, disenfranchised, more coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, cookies, coup, coup, coup. Need more? coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup. Did you hear about the event that ethnic Russians, the Crimean authorities and the Russian Federation all reacted to when Crimea (again) became part of Russia in 2014? Yep, Coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, as in coup d’ etat. Coup, coup, coup, coup, street violence, breakdown in rule of law, outside attack on Ukrainian sovereignty and a disenfranchising of millions of Eastern voters, a threat to their autonomy agreements, safety, and language rights, otherwise known as coup. Coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup. Still ignoring the Neocon and State Department elephant in the “debate?” I mean the coup? Fuck the EU, and let’s get on with the coup. Coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup, coup. Still ignoring it Tom? How about addressing the coup?

          • TomWonacott

            I have addressed the coup on numerous occasions Ricky. RT apologists want the world to believe that the coup began in February, 2014 (and of course, this was a neo Nazi-CIA coup). Unfortunately, history of Ukraine-Russian relations tells a much different story.

            Ukraine lost its independence to the Bolsheviks after WWI. They were incorporated into the USSR for the next 70 years or so. In 1932-33, 3-4 million Ukrainians starved to death under Stalin economic policies referred to as the Holodomor. Many Ukrainians believe this was directed at Ukraine in a genocide. In 2006, the Ukrainian government under Yushchenko passed legislation calling the Holodomor genocide by the Russian government. This was a big hint to Russian intelligence how Ukrainians viewed 100 years of Russian domination of Ukrainian affairs.

            During the occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany in WWII, many Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis (Wikipedia):

            “…….Original reasons for collaboration included Ukrainian political aspirations for regaining independence, resurgent nationalism, but also widespread anger and resentment against the Russians over the genocide by famine engineered in Soviet Ukraine only a few years earlier………”

            Some Ukrainians also fought both the Germans and the Russians during WWII (for independence). About 100,000(+) Ukrainians were shipped to Siberia after WWII. Many died. Entire families were uprooted because they were suspected of fighting for ther Nazis. After the collapse of the USSR, Ukrainians overwhelmingly voted for independence. Even in Crimea (which was given to Ukraine by Nikita Khrushchev), 54% of the population voted for independence.

            The Euromaidan revolution began when the pro Russian Ukrainian President signed an economic deal with Russia. Yanukovych had promised closer economic ties with the EU in 2010. The Yanukovych government and the EU negotiated over a period of a year before Yanukovych decided to go with the offer from Putin under pressure in late 2013. Note that the Ukraine economy was contracting at the time (i.e., in recession). The Polish economy was doing quite well after joining the EU so Ukrainians viewed a deal with Europe with hope for the future. Putin had threatened four billion dollars in economic trade sanctions if Yanukovych signed the EU package. Protesters took to the streets in November 2013 beginning the process which resulted in a coup – and true Ukrainian independence.

            The crack down on protesters on November 30, 2013 by the Berkut police initiated the violence in the protests. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians joined the protests in December, 2013 and January-February, 2014 after the brutal crack down on peaceful protesters. The decision to go with the Customs Union and the resulting protests had nothing to do with the US. This was the EU “interfering” in the non existent Russian sphere of influence. The US supported the entrance of Ukraine to the EU.

            The US meddled in the coup (as did Russia). Nuland helped determine the succeeding government, but the coup resulted from 100 years of Russian dominance, a poor economy and the brutal, violent tactics of the Yanukovych police. Svaboda (and others) which included Ukrainian neo-Nazis served to protect the protesters. They met violence with violence. Pro Ukrainian nationalists and neo-Nazis were an important part of the violence associated with the coup, but by far the majority of the protesters were peaceful Ukrainians looking for a better life with greater economic ties to the EU.

            Russian intelligence completely failed to account for the history of Ukrainian relations with Russia – and the importance of developing closer economic ties with the EU. It was a huge intelligence failure.

            Thanks

          • Ricky Miller

            And consequences included violations of the rights of ethnic Russians in Crimea and elsewhere in Ukraine. Hence the loss of Crimea. Apologists like you, dredging up Soviet and Stalinist issues from the past try constantly to attach Soviet crimes to the current Russian Federation. Manipulation of those feelings is what helped. certain neocon types to instigate this coup. And Russia responded. Vladimir Putin is not and will never be confused with Boris Yeltsin. And Crimea is back where it belongs and wanted to be. And importantly, is not hosting American warplanes and ships.

            Try this fact on Tom. The railroad line of the Crimean or Kerch Strait bridge will open soon. That’s fifty trains a day, each way, every day. That type of economic link is permanent and will never be reversed. The Russians see these chain of events one way, including the legal details. You present the Maidan and MSM view. People are not going to change in large numbers and cross views. So, we are in a practical standoff. And Russia holds all the cards. The people of Crimea approve of this change. Russia is developing the peninsula economically and living standards are already well ahead of those in neighbouring Ukraine and better than they were before 2014. And Russia has the military muscle to keep it, something other states have not had when facing off with Western Intelligence schemes of regime change. Others might have to put up with it, Russia does not.

          • TomWonacott

            Apologists like you, dredging up Soviet and Stalinist issues from the past try constantly to attach Soviet crimes to the current Russian Federation.

            The same mistake the the Russian intelligence community made. History is very important to Ukrainians. Just look at the rise of the left wing anti-American regimes in South and Central America. Do you think that US policies during the cold war influenced these rebellions? Hmmm, reminds me of all of the countries that have joined Nato since the collapse of the USSR!

            I agree with some of the second half of your post. However, that does not make the actions legal by Russia. You cannot change that annexing Crimea is illegal under international law, and you cannot change that Russia broke its own signed agreement that recognized the territorial integrity of Ukraine including Crimea (Budapest Memorandum), and you cannot change that Russia is running the conflict in Eastern Ukraine to undermine the economy of Ukraine and the political structure of Ukraine – illegally as well.

          • Ricky Miller

            I dispute that it should be called annexation. It was more of a conspiracy that occurred after a legally elected and democratic government was overthrown, a government elected on the back of Eastern (ethnic Russian) voters participating in significant numbers. Ukrainians have a strong sense of history, sure. But demonizing ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and making them aliens in your midst after the fall of the USSR, as if Soviet crimes were all their fault, helped fracture Ukrainian society and has led to abuses. It’s not so funny that Ukrainians with the importance of history seem to skip over the parts about how much of Ukraine’s current territory was transferred to Ukraine from the Russian Empire’s geographical footprint in the Soviet era. That’s a detail they’d prefer to ignore or gloss over.

            People like you are not doing them any favors. Your arguments about International law are laughable and absurd in the post Kosovo, post Iraqi invasion world. And Ukrainians have to learn to live with their neighbor next door and those Russians living inside Ukraine. Stoking their sense of injustice only leads more Ukrainians to agitate for self inflicted mistakes like the Kerch Strait debacle and actions like roaming around, beating up Russian speakers for daring to speak Russian in public. A million Ukrainians work in Russia. Who is Ukraine’s largest trading partner? This tiff with Russia has already cost Ukraine cheap subsidized gas, and now in December it’s costing them the 20% discount on refined fuels they were getting from Belarus. Russia has just instituted economic sanctions , the IMF has imposed conditions such as a 23% increase in gas bills, with more to come. Stoking their sense of self-aggrandizement and historical misreading of history, actual grievances and not could lead to a devastating war with Russia if their missteps become too large. The seizure of the NORD fishing boat and threats to the Crimea Bridge led to this Sea of Azov situation and now Ukrainian agricultural products are cooling their heels in Mauripol, unable to be exported. This conflict is just stupid for Ukraine. Beyond stupid. Crimea is permanently gone and a conflict with Russia, a huge country outnumbering ethnic Ukrainians by five to one and sitting on a resource base worth $100 trillion leads Ukraine to disaster, for a long time.

          • Ricky Miller

            Btw, a year’s salary. That’s the bet. When Crimea votes again, and surely they will have a referendum redo as part of a larger deal between the EU and Russia, I bet you a year’s salary ($27,000) that 65% of Crimea votes to remain in the Russian Federation, less than 20% choose the option for reunion with Ukraine, in an OSCE monitored vote. Turnout will exceed 80%. Take the bet? Really, put up or shut up.

          • Ricky Miller

            And again, you fail to respond to anyone’s point about the illegal coup that started all this is the first place. It’s as if it all happened in some vacuum, without prior events taking place. Pretending they didn’t, even for the sake of argument doesn’t make it so.

    • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

      “Sorry Eric, your long article is absurd!”
      Quite so! How can our wonderful US and EU leaders be such mass murderers and accomplices?
      Very painful for the brain, isn’t it?
      Just consider that Obama has ordered all those drone strike murders, an order that was also given by that very nice Cameron in Syria.
      No, don’t dismiss these uncomfortable facts just because these are brown people. They are also human beings.
      Our leaders are capable of ordering mass murder. What do you think the nuclear button will do if ever that fateful moment arrives? Bomb the world with USD, Euros, Roubles and Pounds???

    • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

      “Come to think of it, I’m beginning to wonder if Russia actually annexed Crimea.”
      As a British Indian, this is exactly what I really find so offensive. Crimeans have the right of self-determination.They are people and not slaves.
      With this line of thinking India would still be ruled by the British Empire, as Churchill intended.
      Very very offensive indeed.
      Same old Western supremacist and imperialists. These impulses are now fully subsumed under US violent exceptionalism, expansionism and supremacy.

      • TomWonacott

        Bullshit. Crimea was the homeland of the Tatars until they were ALL ethnically cleansed by Russia and relocated elsewhere. They were not allowed to return until they late 1980s. I am a firm believer in “self-determination”, but Russia didn’t do this for self determination. Don’t confuse self determination with geopolitical interests. Note the “self determination” of the Chechens!

        • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

          What a disgusting imperialist you are! Your ilk would never have allowed India to become independent. You only believe in self-determination of the right people who serve the interests of Western supremacists, like Croatians, Slovenians and Kosovars. Russians, Crimeans, Donbass, Ossetians , Serbians and Indians need not apply.
          After all, they are “untermensh” for your ilk, aren’t they Tom?
          Your ilk has been exposed for all to see.
          Truly disgusting.

  • AM Hants

    Talking of Ukraine:

    I seriously like the words of George Galloway. Which would have surprised me, prior to 2014, before I woke from my media induced zombie coma. Now I find him one of the few sane politicians in the UK.

    An axis of evil formed between them and the head-chopping, heart-eating, crucifying killers of Islamist extremism must mark a new low in Western policy. And the worst possible Christmas present for the Christians of eastern Ukraine…

    ‘… An axis of evil formed between them and the head-chopping, heart-eating, crucifying killers of Islamist extremism must mark a new low in Western policy. And the worst possible Christmas present for the Christians of eastern Ukraine…’ https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01-01/islamic-state-ukraine-christmas-present-west

    ………………

    For those of you who do not know who George Galloway is, here he is, over in the US attending one of their hearings, following the Iraq War.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c23edd01333070093376bfdc90a819491188f6b7c9dccf31babce23000c9823c.jpg

    George Galloway Senate Testimony (FULL)… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5u1skEoqLs

  • Govert

    Way too long to react on all the disinformation, baseless discrediting statements and political half-truth’s in this article. But let’s take the headline to begin with. It says MH17 Turnabout: Ukraine’s Guilt Now Proven Somewhere in the article the author writes “Skepticism in judging anything is not only good; it is essential to justice.” And “Without examining (usually by spot-checking) the evidence, no reader can intelligently judge any case”. Good points. So where does the article bring the “proof” for his statement in the headline, or rather the facts that substantiate this “proof”? Shows on Russian TV where MoD people show papers with “evidence” do not provide any “proof” as long as the information has not been made available and has not been studied by international investigators. The first question is why it took 4 (four) months to retrieve them and make them available for this show. The JIT had asked for the meaning of the numbers in May 2018. Novaya Gazeta already had question marks on the dates and the handwriting. Is all in the shown documents genuine? Other people already asked the question what happened with the BUK’s in Crimea after the Russians took over and probably modernized the available air defense hardware?

    Unfortunately what this article does bring is old and boring mis- and disinformation. I’ll pick a few:

    “The MH17’s pilot was instructed by Ukraine’s air-traffic control to take that path instead of the one that the airline had planned and that had become normal during the civil war. … Clearly, only Ukraine’s Government could, and did, do that — change the route, and for only that one plane.”

    That statement has been repeated numerous times in the “alt media”. So, the question to Mr Zuesse is what “the airline had planned”, in other words, what Malaysia Airlines’ flight plan for MH17 looks like (I challenge him to show it as proof for his statements/accusations), where MH17 was downed and how far the latter location is from the flight plan’s route. I hope Mr Zuesse can also tell why numerous other airliners took that route earlier that day and why at the the same time as the MH17 tragedy an other airliner from Singapore airlines was following at about 30 kilometers (2 minutes flying time), approaching the same airway and almost the same (crash) location and why an Air India airliner was approaching that very same spot from the opposite direction (ie from Russia). Mr Zuesse can probably also show MH16’s (yes 16) flight plan – earlier that day ? Mr Zuesse can of course show (or let us hear) what Ukraine’s ATC had exactly “instructed”?

    “Peter Haisenko’s reconstruction of the event”.

    That’s about the “downed by cannon fire”. As the article says, Mr Haisenko is a former Lufthansa airliner pilot. He could also have been a bus driver. Nowhere is he introduced as a weapon expert. His “independent investigation” consists of staring at a photo on a computer screen. An article from the same site that is also quoted elsewhere in the article above clearly debunks Mr Haisenko’s stories. http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/peter-haisenko-talks-nonsense-about-mh17/ Question to Mr Zuesse is whether he can explain the concentration of the dramatic damage on the well known panel of the cockpit’s left hand side. If what it shows would be bullet exit holes, then where are the entry holes, or if these are entry holes, where are the exit holes. How does he explain the numerous small irregular holes? And how does Mr Zuesse explain the concentrated damage on that panel of about 1.5 square meter, knowing that MH17 was a very fast moving target at 250 meters per second and a cannon that – depending on the model – fires 25 to 50 bullets max per second, meaning that every time a bullet leaves the cannon barrel, the plane had moved 5 to 10 meters? No, the type of fighter jet does not make any difference; an “SU-25” was what the Russians claimed; why they chose that as an “attacker” remains a mystery as it led to many discussions about its capabilities at the airliner’s cruising altitude.

    Russian Television had issued in October 2014 a 25-minute documentary on the event, and it starts with people whom they interviewed in that region, who were describing their having seen at least one and perhaps two planes rising toward the airliner, and then the airliner coming down from the sky. Other witnesses told them that they saw an SU-25 fighter plane take off in that general area just minutes before the airliner came down.

    It was a clouded afternoon. Even the Russian Union of Engineers confirms in their report that the sky was overcast. So what is the value, or credibility, of “eye witnesses” who claim to have seen things happening above the clouds?

    So, now, we know why Western governments have hidden, instead of making vailable to the public, the black-box data and the other evidence that they still refuse to provide to the public.

    When has it ever happened that fully detailed information from the black boxes has been made public? Essential parts have been published in the report from the DSB. Most importantly, the downloaded results from the black boxes has been reviewed by the Russians too. The question is why that is left out of this discussion time and time again.

    • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

      Explain why the JIT, stuffed full of anti-Russian RACISTS from the NATO gangsters countries, hides the MH17 evidence?
      Put up or shut up.
      Let’s start with the satellite images that LIAR Kerry said the US had that pinpointed the launch of the missile that brought down MH17, according to the Western farts.
      Put up or shut up!

    • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

      “When has it ever happened that fully detailed information from the black boxes has been made public after a crash? Essential parts have been published in the report from the DSB.”
      Classic! How very Soviet! Just feed the Plebs with enough cooked up “evidence” to make them compliant, malleable and open to swallowing the current anti-Russian RACIST hysteria.
      Of course, the real evidence must be hidden to protect the mass murderers in Banderised Ukraine and their controllers in Washington, Brussels and London. Never mind that the country being accused is a nuclear power with enough bombs to wipe out the entire planet several times over. Why would transparency matter with such high stakes, eh. After all, the media is all controlled by very cooperative governments and billionaires, right?
      I must commend your services to the US Evil Empire, USEE.
      Would like to be knighted, SIR Govert, dear???

  • AM Hants

    Interesting article, below, concerning Crimea.

    UK and US Always Knew Crimea Wanted to Re-join Russia – Archives

    ‘…London and Washington knew of the overwhelming desire of Crimeans to re-unite with Russia from the early days of Ukraine’s independence. UK and US diplomats predicted that Ukraine would split and that Crimea would look to Russia, British Cabinet papers released to the National Archives in London reveal.

    In 1994 the British got a chance to learn first-hand about the strength of pro-Russian sentiments in Crimea. A visit by Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd to Ukraine and Russia coincided with a crisis in relations between Kiev and Simferopol, Crimea’s capital. In May 1994, the Foreign Office informed Prime Minister John Major that the Crimean parliament, the Supreme Soviet, had “decided to renew the validity of the Crimean Constitution adopted in 1992”. This, the FCO memo said, meant ending the legal status of Crimea as part of Ukraine…

    …………………..

    …Crimea had been an autonomous republic within the Russian Federation; in 1945 it was downgraded to a region within the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic and was in 1954 transferred to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in what the Foreign Office described as an “administrative fiat of [Communist leader — NG] Kruschev”.

    The Crimean head at the time was sacked for opposing the move. Most Crimeans never accepted the transfer, which many saw as a “virtual deportation from Russia to Ukraine”, and in early 1991 over 80% of them voted in a referendum to restore Crimea’s autonomy. The Ukrainian Supreme Soviet acquiesced. After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in December 1991, the Crimeans began a relentless campaign to reunite with Russia. In May 1992, the Crimean parliament adopted the republic’s constitution, which declared Crimea’s right to self-determination. Kiev threatened to open criminal proceeding against the Crimean leaders and hinted at military action to stamp out “separatism”.

    The Crimeans had to put their drive for reunification with Russia on ice. But in 1994 they repeated their attempt and elected their own president on a ticket of re-integration with Russia…

    ……………………

    Grass Greener in Russia
    The British Foreign Office briefed Prime Minister John Major in May 1994:

    “Kiev insisted that the Crimean parliament should rescind anti-constitutional measures, particularly attempts to take over the command of interior ministry forces, the security services and demands for dual citizenship — Ukrainian and Russian”. [About 70% of Crimeans are ethnic Russians — NG]…

    ……………………….

    …Crimea, the FCO brief continued, “has always had a special status in the Ukrainian constitution and enjoys considerable autonomy under existing legislation”. In fact, Crimea had its own constitution that gave the republic sovereign powers.

    The Foreign Office saw the potential for even greater devolution for Crimea, particularly on economic matters, which the central government in Kiev had neglected, despite all the financial assistance it was receiving from the West…

    ……………

    … This ultimately is the key to security and stability in Crimea. Unless Ukraine embarks on a serious economic reform programme to stem economic decline the grass will always seem greener on the other (Russian) side”…

    ……………

    …In April 1994, the British Foreign Office reassured Prime Minister John Major that the negative security assurances that Britain, alongside the US and Russia, had agreed to give Ukraine in return for her giving up nuclear weapons “does not bind us to any significant new commitments”…

    ……………

    Kiev took its own view of the way forward having obtained the security assurance by the nuclear states. Four months after the Budapest summit, it unilaterally abolished the 1992 Crimean constitution and deposed the popularly elected president of Crimean Republic, Yuri Meshkov.

    …His supporters claimed that Ukraine had effectively annexed Crimea through a coup d’etat. They made further attempts to uphold their constitutional rights in 1995, 1998 and 2006, but to no avail. However, as British diplomats opined in 1994, Crimean demands for autonomy or re-integration with Russia would not go away.

    An American forecast for the long term developments around Crimea turned out to be prescient: “Ukraine could eventually split into more than two parts”, the State Department predicted in 1994. Fast forward to 2014, and it looks like Washington knew all along what would happen if Ukraine was forced to make an existential choice between the East and West.

    …A negative security assurance is a guarantee by a state with nuclear weapons that it will not use or threaten to use them against a non-nuclear state. Unlike a positive security assurance, it does not require a state with nuclear weapons to come to the aid of a non-nuclear state if it is attacked by another state with nuclear weapons.

    The Ukrainians insisted on positive security assurance, but neither London nor Washington was prepared to offer this…

    ……………………..

    https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201812281071042343-uk-us-crimea-russia/

  • VeeNarian (Yerevan)

    “The 14 July 2014 mass-murder that was set up to be blamed against Russia was Obama’s trick that enabled him to win his way on this.”
    But how could that nice, liberal, black, human rights champion, Nobel peace prize winner, darling of the entire EU and the “civilised world”, the one and only Obama possibly be such a mass murderer and the Obomber?
    Well, just look at the wars he has conducted around the world and the hundreds of drone strike murders he has authorised.
    As CSI would say, Obomber has form.
    I hope he rots in hell, very very soon, and meets his accomplice McCain.

  • Kelli Hernandez

    Eric, absolutely BRILLIANT!
    One of the best investigative journalists around!
    Will share far and wide!

  • Trauma2000

    Plane “Broke Up In The AIR!!??”

    Bullshit! It came down in one piece, right side engine ablaze, and the Ukrainian artillery then proceeded to BOMB and SHELL the area for 45 minutes afterwards in order to destroy the evidence.

    This ‘investigation is ANOTHER FABRICATION but lying Dutchmen in order to distract and cover up for the perpetrators.

  • Cobber83

    Definitely shot down by Ukraine Jet.. The proof is here in these satellite photos./ ttps://orientalreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Ukrainian-attack-on-MH17-sat-photo.jpg